I have found myself thinking much about faith in recent days. The recent discussions in this blog has set me on that course. My two-month-old nephew's fight for his life (his kidneys are at 10 percent functionality as he battles away in ICU) adds to the thinking. No battles here, just ideas, hopefully firm in Scripture.
For one, we are saved by grace through faith, not by works. This confirms that faith stands apart from other attempts at righteousness. So too does the fact that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. He was not righteous. God was righteous; Christ was righteous; Abraham was not righteous. Hence, his righteousness, his faith, had to be attached to the Holy Other in order for it to count for anything. Again, it's all about the gaze of our faith, not the size of it.
Second, what of the spiritual gift of faith, which Paul listed in 1 Corinthians 12? It seems to be left out of every discussion of the faith we are supposed to have in order to see wondrous things around us. If there is a gift of faith (v. 9), we should accept the implication that some will have exceptional faith--perhaps the faith to move mountains--while the rest of us do not. We would/should no more expect all believers to have this gifted degree of faith than we would/should expect all believers to teach in front of crowds or administrate in the church or prophesy (remember, Paul himself said he desired all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy--yet they could not). We accept the implication that not all will shine in these other gifts, but sometimes we place onerous and guilt-laden (intentional or not) weights on those who seem not to be showing "enough faith." I have said before and am saying it here again: I need to surround myself with those who have the gift of faith; I need to ride their wings.
Third, if faith brought incessant miracles, what then would we do with the gift of mercy (Romans 12:8)? What role would there be for mercy givers, or those with the caretaking healing gifts, if all troubles were instantly curable? I think many miracles do not happen in order to preserve the ordained workings of the full body of Christ.
Finally, if faith can demand miracles, is it then demanding of God? His timing, His pace, the thousand years vs. a day principle (in both directions!)--these all belong in the realm of God's knowing sovereignty. Let's pray for miracles, sure (we are certainly doing so in our nephew's little life!). But so much more, let's pray that God's will be done, even when we're not altogether excited about that will.
QUESTIONS FOR THOSE WHO MIGHT COMMENT
- How has faith been defined in your life? How have you seen it wonderfully displayed by a brother or sister in Christ?
- What sorts of things bother you about God's sovereignty? Why, when we are so good at saying "God is sovereign" do we accept the happy miracles (an unexpected birth, say) but not the sad outworkings (an unexpected death)?
- What is the next step of faith you are looking to take in your life?
God Keeps Leading
12 years ago
35 comments:
Let me first say I am very sorry to hear about your nephew. I want you to know I am praying for him to be completely healed, 100% kidney function,and that no spirit of infirmity would be in his life in any way. My faith awaits a good report on your nephew.
It is hard for me to imagine a God who denies a suffering person healing because the person praying for them does not have the "gift". And once one determines they dont have the gift, how do they pray in faith. This sovereign question actually can raise doubt about faith. God is sovereign,He is going to do what He wants, so why pray? Do I actually think my prayer is going to change God's mind?
"Thy kingdom come" means something here. "Thy will be done" What is His kingdom?
When we look at the gifts in 1 cor 12 we often breeze right over verse 6. "There are different kinds of working,(activity) but the same God works(to be at work in,to produce) all of them,in all men.
We have blogged on Todd Bentley. He speaks about God, and seems to have much wisdom on God's power. He also seems to have incredible faith. He certainly has the gift of healing. And I must include miraculous powers from what I have witnessed. He has prophesied time and time again,and spoken in tongues often.
"All these are the work of the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one,just as he determines.(to wish, will, desire, to choose, determine, plan.)
What if we have access to all the gifts? What if a person eagerly desired the gifts, all the gifts. What if God saw that and gave them the desire of their heart? Todd Bentley tells of seeking the Lord 12-14 hours a day for 90 days,and then God broke through,or he broke through to God.
Someone said you cant make demands of God. But what about the verse "strong and violent men take the kingdom by force." What did Jesus mean by that? Someone commented that Mr.Bentley was violent in his praying for healing. It is true,I have seen him knee someone in the stomach and head someone in the stomach also. Both of these people claim they were healed when he did these things. Jesus was humble and meek, but made a whip and turned the church upside down.
What if God sees our hearts, our desires,our hunger and being a loving gracious Father, gives good gifts to those who ask. We arent asking for a million dollars here, or a big shiny cadillac, we are asking for gifts that bring glory to God and advance the kingdom which I interpret as "Thy will be done" So we pray for "Thy kingdom come".
I believe we have alot more say in the gifts than we think. Doris Day theology...whatever will be will be, may not be very good theology. As for the gift of mercy, we all have that gift dont we?
"It is hard for me to imagine a God who denies a suffering person healing because the person praying for them does not have the "gift". And once one determines they dont have the gift, how do they pray in faith."
We are all called to pray, in faith. Whether we have the "gift" or not. I think Jeff was saying that some have the gift of faith that allows them to have an exceptional measure, versus my regular measure. That doesn't mean that I can not pray with my meager measure and ask God to heal someone. God still listens to my prayers. And it does say in 1 Corinthians 12 that to one the message of wisdom is given... and to another the gift of faith, and to another gifts of healing. So one may have the gifts of healing, but not actually have the gift if faith. So how can they pray in faith? Well, we are all given a measure of faith, but some are blessed with a gift of faith.
Check out what John Piper had to say about this -
"According to Romans 12:3, God gives varying measures of faith to his people. Paul says that we ought "to think so as to have sound judgement, as God has alloted to each a measure of faith" (emphasis added). In the context, this is not a limited reference to the unique spiritual gift of faith which only some believers have (1 Corinthians 12:9). For Paul says, "I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgement, as God has alloted to each a measure of faith. (emphasis added). "To each" refers back to "everyone among you." God has given all Christians varying measures of faith. This is the faith with which we receive and use our varying gifts. It is the ordinary daily trust of the Son of God (Galatians 2:20) by which we live and minister.
In the context, Paul is concerned that people were "thinking of themselves more highly than they ought to think." His final remedy for this pride is to say that, not only are our spiritual gifts a work of God's free grace in our lives, but so also is the very faith with which we use those gifts. This means that every possible ground of boasting is taken away. How can we boast if even the qualification for receiveing gifts is also a gift?"
How awesome is that? Once again the pressure is taken off of us to muster up faith. All we need to do is surrender ourselves to God and the measure of faith He has given to us, and walk in our gifts accordingly.
I'm supposed to be working on a research paper for a completely different topic. It is so easy to derail me with theological questions, but I'll try to be brief.
I wonder how faith relates to fervor. When it comes to faith in Christ, is real faith always fervent? Is a lack of "heat" a sign of "lukewarm" faith? I admit that I do not know (and I don't have time to dig around right now--I'm trying to be disciplined and do my homework). I would have to do some study on that.
I understand the gifts as unmerited impartations of spiritual functions to be used for the edification of the body. In other words, God "uploads" specific ways of thinking and being into each of us, that we have not worked at acquiring. These are for the purpose of making the Body a whole and functioning representation of Christ on earth.
That being said, we do make choices about how to use our gifts and can grow in them when we exercise them. Maybe the parable of the talents speaks to this (although I don't want to simplify that teaching in order to prove my point here). I do not think that God revokes them. We do not earn them (they are literally "graces" from God), so we cannot un-earn them.
I tend to think of the "gift of faith" as represented in a person who, once a believer, doesn't struggle with doubts. I don't know if this is accurate. If it is, the fact that many of us do have times of doubting, makes it reasonable to think that one could have real faith without having the gift of faith.
I think of Tim as being a person with the gift of faith. Just by being himself, and being connected in fellowship to other believers, he inspires the faith of others. The gift is not for the individual (they may not even be aware of it), but is actualized when the gifted individual is in relationship with other believers. Our gifts rub-off on each other. It is conceivable to me, that one who is gifted with faith comes along side one who is gifted with miracles, and in working together they edify Christ's Body. Each one plays their own part. In other words, the one who is gifted with miracles is not necessarily gifted with faith. Otherwise, why would they be separate gifts? If one person's gift of miracles requires the same person to also have the gift of faith in order to "work," what is the person who only has the gift of faith needed for? Maybe our gifts interact, one being a catalyst for the other (is cocatalystic a word?).
In the Western world, we do not understand interdependance very well, especially in the good ol' USA. We think of our "personal savior" and our "personal relationship with God." I agree that these are meaningful ideas. I do not discount the importance of this one-to-one relating to God. But, in our boot-strap culture we miss that God made us to be in relationship with one another. This is much more than a nice idea; something that makes life better. It is an essential part of being made in the image of God.
And, it is much more than a clever saying that: "For where two or three gather together as my followers,I am there among them" (Matt 18.20, NLV). I don't mean to imply that Christ is not present to us unless we are with other believers. Don't misunderstand me. I just mean that for the whole body to be represented, via our gifts and edification of one another, we must be in community. This is why I also believe that only Jesus has all the gifts. I don't even think that we will have them all in heaven. What would we need each other for if we could be self-sufficient in all things? The Bible is clear. We need each other.
That said, if any one wants more input about what I think Paul meant by "desiring all the gifts," I am happy to share that. Suffice it to say, Paul was communicating that no person, regardless of their gifts, was to be elevated above another. The Corinthians were enamored with tongues and prophecy. They assumed that these were proof of one's spiritual fervor, and were treating each other terribly because of this misunderstanding.
Regarding "all" people desiring "all" the gifts, in 1 Cor 12.6, Paul is saying that all the gifts of the Spirit, no matter who they are given to, are given by God and no other. He repeats his point in verse 11: "All these [gifts, achievements, abilities] are inspired and brought to pass by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, Who apportions to each person individually [exactly] as He chooses..." (AMP). The whole passage is very clear that gifts are distributed at God's discretion, and that each believer is given a unique portion of gifting. Furthermore, because God is the one doing all of this, we are disrespecting Christ when we disrespect each other (contextually based on his previous rebuke in 11.17-34 about their abuse of the communion meal). It is very unlikely that Paul means to communicate that all people would ideally have all the gifts.
Now back to my paper on "Adult AD/HD and its Effects on Parenting."
Demonstrating perhaps, that I lack the gift of wisdom, I wanted to address one more point. Then I will get to my paper.
About the "taking the kingdom by force" scripture, I made a simple graph of that verse using twelve reliable translations and one paraphrase (The Message). If you are interested, I can tell you more about what I see.
If you want to check it out for yourself, just retrieve the verse (or any verse for that matter) from an online source like biblegateway.com and compare different translations. Make sure you start with well respected translations. Some sites (like biblios) have parallel translations listed all on the same page (very convenient) but their selected translations can be pretty obscure. I use a wide range of well known versions from King James to Amplified to New Living Translation to New International.
I copy/paste them into a single document and then highlight the phrases that are translations of the same original words. For this verse, I used two different colors because there are two main phrases I wanted to compare.
For example, this is the NIV translation.
"From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it" (Matthew 11.12).
and this is the ESV and NRSV (they are the same in this case)
"From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force."
I highlighted these two interrelated phrases differently and did the same thing for all the other translations. I did this in Word and actually used the highlight function (green and yellow this time) instead of bold and italics. So that each verse has a green phrase and a yellow phrase (just like this example has a bold+italic phrase and a bold phrase). Whatever works for you is just fine.
I am a visual learner and like to use charts/tables, so I then organized the highlighted phrases in a table. Then I observed the differences. It only took half an hour (it's all copy/paste).
Doing this may lead to more questions, as opposed to a solid answer, but observation is a great place to start.
Play around with this idea and see what comes up for you.
If faith comes by hearing the word of God, my question is can we increase our faith? And if we can increase it what is the result of it.
That's a good question. I don't have time to work on that right now, but I'd love to read what you find.
2nd Cor 10.15. "Neither do we go beyond our limits by boasting of work done by others. Our hope is that as your faith continues to grow,our area of activity among you will greatly expand.
2Thess 1:3 "We ought always to thank God for you, brothers,and rightly so,because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing."
Then to look at how many times Jesus commended those because "great is your faith", and rebuked those when He said "Oh Ye of little faith. But one of the most interesting is when he returned to his hometown and the bible says "And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith." Is it possible that we are the catalyst to miracles by the amount of faith we possess? I cant say for sure, but there are many references to this.
Yes, faith can certainly grow. There is no doubt of that. I still have many questions about what that means and how that looks. Perhaps it has to do with coming to greater and greater conviction of who Jesus is, and who we are in relationship to him. This is reflected in the quote I cited earlier: "There are no instant conversions" in Brother Tvedten's book.
Even though our faith can grow (or is it that we grow because of our faith), It remains my opinion that the scriptures you quote do not have to do with generating enough faith to merit God's favor and a related sign, which is born of our high enough level of faith.
1. "And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith" (Matthew 13.58, NIV), appears in the context of the Jewish people of his home town not accepting Jesus. They had a total lack of faith (belief) in Jesus as the Messiah (which is Matthew's whole thrust). "And He did not do many works of power there, because of their unbelief (their lack of faith in the divine mission of Jesus)" (AMP). This has nothing to do with Christians lacking enough faith to see and do miracles. This was about Jewish unbelievers.
Furthermore, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (condensed edition) defines the root of the original word, apistos (9 pages of definition), as an interrelated concept of faith and faithfulness. That is to say, belief and obedience are irreversibly entangled with each other. One does not exist without the other. So, it might be said that to grow in faith is to grow in obedience to the reality that Jesus is the law and our prime example of righteous worship (i.e., right relationship to God).
2. The faith-faithfulness of the miracle worker (Jesus) was not in question here. Based on this verse, it cannot be said that a Christian must have enough faith to work miracles. In this particular case, Jesus withheld miracles because he chose to, because of the unbelievers' unbelief. He did not throw his "pearls before swine." Whether or not a Christian needs a certain measure of faith to see or work miracles is not answered in this verse. Also, Matthew uses this passage as part of his apologetic for Jesus being the Messiah promised in OT prophecy. It is not a teaching on the relationship of Christian faith and the ability of Christ followers to work miracles.
3. Neither can it be said that, based on this verse, signs and wonders are for evangelism (as has been proposed in other threads). Quite the opposite, they are withheld here because of unbelief, and since evangelism is for unbelievers, Jesus would be messing up royally if he failed to perform the necessary signs.
4. Elsewhere in the gospels, it is very clear that signs are given after an individual declares their new-found faith in Jesus as the savior, not as an evangelistic tool. This is the strongest evidence that signs and wonders happen as a result of faith. However, it cannot be said that a "strong" or "mature" faith is required in order for miracles to happen. Often these are individuals that have no previous affiliation with the Jewish religion. If we want to talk about growing in faith until one has enough for miracles, how is it that these newborn believers immediately have enough faith-faithfulness for miracles? Many have never worshipped the God of Israel before. Apparently, all it takes is belief in the right person. That is enough faith. Perhaps their repentance was faithfulness enough to express the full measure of faith they had. In this sense, we are all filled with as much faith as we can be at any given moment. We cannot muster up more faith, we can merely behave as faithfully as we are able. A human maxim may apply here: I did the very best I could at the time. This does not mean we do not grow into more faith. But, this is evidenced by our faithful behavior (obedience), not our internal sense of strength or fervor, or other nebulous experience.
5. As to the text in 1 Thessalonians 1.2-3, the NIV renders this, "We always thank God for all of you, mentioning you in our prayers. We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ." These are three ways of saying the same thing with two bunches of synonyms. The author is using a literary devise to emphasize the encouragement. In other words: You are very very very faithful! Notice that this faith is evidenced by work-labor-endurance that is wrapped up with faith-love-hope. It's almost like Paul's epistles are wrapped up in this little triplet. Cool! This is what it looks like to be faith-filled.
Yes, faith grows. Faith (belief) and faithfulness (obedience) are indistinguishable. One grows in faith-faithfulness as one becomes more and more obedient to God through Christ. However, "strong enough" faith is not what is required in order for God to work miracles. The existence of faith is. In Matthew 14.30-31 Jesus worked a miracle for Peter in spite of the rebuke Jesus gave him about having little (no) faith. Peter cried out to Jesus, "Lord save me" and declared his true conviction that Jesus was his savior. Then, it's like Jesus said to Peter: Here we go, one more time, son. That's the stuff.
Finally, the 2 Corinthians verses you quote really don't have to do with faith, per se. But it does have something to say to our discussion. Paul is speaking to a problem of arrogance and jealousy developing between Christian ministries. Paul redirects the focus of measuring and comparing ministry and church growth away from human strength and effort, onto the source and object of our faith-faithfulness.
Faith-faithfulness grow, sure. But, the verses mentioned here do not prove that signs and wonders are not something that can be earned, nor shown to be present or absent in relation to the degree of faith a given Christian has or does not have.
I'm wondering. What are other ways, beside wonder-working, that faith is expressed?
I knew that would happen. I tried to edit quickly and lived to regret is.
Obviously I meant to say that the verses mentioned here do not prove that signs and wonders are something that can be earned; not that they can not not prove it.
Jumping in to this thread. I'm becoming more simple in my spiritual formation. Don't you think faith is just knowing Jesus? The more we know Him the more we know what He is like and what His will is. It's kind of like completing your spouse's thoughts. Also I think alot of miracles that Jesus did was just because He loved the people so much. As I read so many of the stories I see His heart just respond to needs motivated by love. Thanks for letting me butt in.
I really like what you said, catd. Even if Jesus knew fully what his actions meant, in terms of fulfilling messianic prophecy, it does seem clear that his motivation for working miracles and healings was loving compassion. He certainly wasn't checking off items on a "to do" entitled: Prophecies to Fulfill.
Monday:
Storm the synagogue. check
I agree that there is nothing more important than knowing Jesus and doing what he wills. At this point in my life, and being who I am, I get totally excited about digging into scripture and finding Jesus. I really want to know him, not simply affirm my preconceived notions of him.
So yes, I do think that it's all about knowing Jesus more and more. But, if I don't miss my guess, you are probably further along in your faith development than I am. If we don't stagnate in our faith, most of us tend to develop along a recognizable path (not the same as anyone else, but familiar). At a certain point, typically around middle-age (but not always), one's faith matures in a way that resembles the simplicity of a much younger stage. However, it has a deeper and richer quality that reflects contentment in God's goodness. One typically expresses little need to wrestle or defend. And,they demonstrate a submission to God that is both solid and free. I'm not there yet. I'm still scrappy.
As for completing my husband's thoughts: I have never been able to do that. After 18 years (in a couple weeks) we still haven't gotten there :)
Unbelief comes in many forms.One may believe in Jesus as their savior, but not as their healer.
Maybe a good study with all those bible sources,and tools would be to type in "if you believe" or "have faith", or "do not doubt" then maybe you might find a verse where the building of faith might lead to something more in God.
I am currently looking for a verse that says its not necessary to have faith in God for these things. So far im coming up empty.
To say we only get one gift, I see too many others operating in strong giftings in several areas. If I believe I only get one, then I think I limit myself and God.
If I dont think God is going to do a miracle, is that a lack of faith? If I dont pray for a miracle when one is needed is that a lack of faith? If you got a report that someone is sick and needs prayer, and you did not get up and go pray for them, lay hands on them and annoint them with oil as soon as possible, isnt that a lack of faith? Faith makes people act, and believe for bigger things than themselves. I think this kind of faith, not in myself, but in my God,and His promises merits God's favor,and is born of a high level of faith. Faith higher than a fear of man, and how I look.
Hold up, Aquila, it sounds like you may be jumping to conclusions here. I'd like to clarify that
1) I would never say that "it is not necessary to have faith for these things." Of course it is. The Bible clearly teaches that to have faith is to obey, and to obey is to please God. We agree here.
2) The Bible is not written in sound-bites. Plucking out single verses in order to prove one's own notions is a misuse of the scripture. I don't go looking for a verse that "proves" something. I go to the scripture to hear what God is saying through it. This involves reading those "favorite verses" within the context of whole books.
Often, single verses are used as reference points to a scriptural concept, but the verses themselves can only be interpreted within their contexts. Think about how many cults cite the Bible as their source. Taking stories and verses out of context can put some pretty crazy, and downright evil, spins on them. Sometimes, doing so simply saps the powerful meaning that the verse was intended to communicate. Other times, the verse becomes absurd instead of useful.
3) We are in agreement that an individual can have more than one gift. That is demonstrated by Paul, and we can see it clearly in other believers.
4) "If you got a report that someone is sick and needs prayer, and you did not get up and go pray for them, lay hands on them and annoint them with oil as soon as possible, isnt that a lack of faith?"
If you learned that someone was hungry and you did not feed them, is that a lack of faith?
If you learned that someone was without clothing and shelter, and did not assist them, is that a lack of faith?
If you learned that someone was in prison and did not visit them, is that a lack of faith?
I'm sure both of us can think of tons more examples. My point is this: Each one of us can only do so much. We can only do what God has call us as individuals to do. When we obey God in what we are called to do, we all work together to get the job done. So, if you are asking me if I am disobedient and lack faith-faithfulness when I do not go and pray for each and every person I know of who is currently sick, I do not hesitate to say no. I am not necessarily disobedient. I couldn't possibly do that and be obedient in the other things God has call me to do and be. I have not been called to travel the world and lay hands on all the sick I can find. If you are, then by all means, obey the call of God with as much faith-faithfulness as you can. Go for it!!!
On the other hand, if I choose not to do the very things that God has called me to do, I am lacking in faithfulness. No one person can do all the work, or every aspect of the work.
Nonetheless, when I am with a friend who is sick and I do not pray for comfort, healing, and the will of God, then I am possibly being unfaithful (depending on other factors). There is no reason for me to avoid praying, and I find that I am often lazy and unfaithful in that regard. This isn't a lack of welcoming a gift of miracles, but maybe a lack of compassion and humility. This is certainly an area that I can grow in. It is true, I am not always faithful to pray.
Life is not often as simple as yes vs. no. There are a lot of "it depends" scenarios (which is what the need for discernment is about).
I'm wondering what it is about miracles/healings/signs/wonders that so overwhelm your concept of faith-faithfulness and the work of God. For all your concerns about putting "God in a box" your writing conveys a very narrow view of the work of God and faithful Christian living. It sounds like you want other people to obey the call that God has placed in you and are measuring the faith of others in light of this one aspect of the Kingdom.
Maybe I have misunderstood you. I am only commenting on what I read, and the themes I see in your writing.
But I do not think I use scripture as a sound byte, picking and choosing as I wish... but scripture is where I get my opinions on these matters. Im a simple minded person, so I take it at what it says...As for my calling and what it is...I could not tell you except to say Im supposed to do alot of loving, God first,and then my neighbor. But often in my writing I do question why the east coast has more going on than the west coast, and I cant help but feel faith is part of the answer.
First off, thank you for teaching me the correct spelling of sound byte. I use my dictionary about twenty times a day. I have a link on my bookmarks bar, but I didn't check it on this one and look what happened :)
My words, regarding said bytes, were in response to your suggestion to do a concordance search and find applicable verses. That's not a bad idea. I'd like to see what I can find.
I'd also like to hear more about your thoughts on eastern vs. western U.S. Can you make connections to greater faith practice in the east, apart from these phenomena? I'm curious. A lot of the country thinks that California is on the fast track to hell. What's your take on that?
East vs. West
This is an interesting thought, aquila, because for a long time it has been generally recognized that the Northeast, at least--if not the extension of the Bible Belt into the Southeast--was falling much deeper into liberalism and agnosticism than the rest of the country. Certainly, what remained of the church was mostly old mainline denominations, with a few thriving megachurches here and there. Meanwhile, the Southwest and California have been megachurchville, both in terms of seeker-sensitive evangelical churches and more charismatic/Pentecostal churches. Perhaps, then (and here's a real speculation) the East was more desperate, more ripe for revival. Now, as you note, they may be receiving it--though I don't think we can rightly say that based on the events of Lakeland alone (whether that be a revival, per se, or a typical Pentecostal "hotspot" or whatever it is). Are there more places of which you speak?
Biblical discussion
Thank you, Amy for holding a firm line on biblical interpretation. One of the most commonly warned-against forms of interpretation is "proof texting," the practice of coming to a conclusion in our minds then hunting for a Scripture to back it up. With the vastness of Scripture we can almost certainly find what we're looking for. In fact, most false religions of the past two hundred years have done just this: captured a particular verse or two and pressed them into unbalanced action. The preventative for this, as you noted, is normally context. But you can't quite go all out in this regard, either, as you will find places where Jesus and the apostles both applied Old Testament passages in ways you would never come to based on the original context. Of course, they were Jesus and the apostles--the inspiration of the Holy Spirit carried them along to a degree that we can't likely fathom.
Back to faith
One of the things I consistently teach is that God moves in each of us at different paces and in different places. Oddly, I have known people who the day they have come to Christ have lost all craving for a certain vice, while others coming to Christ with equal desire struggle with that vice for years (and often vice versa with another aspect of growth in Christ). Interestingly, I think the prevailing sweep of Scripture says that God is looking chiefly for two things from us: faith and humility. Now tell me if you don't think these traits sometimes war with one another. For instance, when a preacher or prophet stands before a crowd and declares in a TV-worthy voice, "I have faith and you need to have it too," I often find myself wondering where the humility is. There can be a fine line between demonstrating faith and bragging about it. On God's end of the spectrum, I wonder if sometimes He answers our requests with a no not because our faith is weak but because our humility needs some tweaking. That seemed to be the case with the answer to Paul: "My grace is sufficient."
Personalities
Here's a final fun sidenote, which crossed my thinking while writing the rest of this stuff. When it comes to practicing faith and our spiritual development, I don't think it is out of bounds to bring into play our God-given personalities. If you are of sanguine personality, for instance, you are going to be drawn to crowds and frenetic events and highly social interaction; you are most likely to find God in people. On the contrary, if you are of melancholy personality, you are typically going to be one who most enjoys meeting God one-on-one in rich quiet times when the house is empty or the view is endless; you are more likely to find God in His Word or His creation. Cholerics may enjoy Him most when they see how He takes charge of circumstances; phlegmatics may learn of Him best in prayer. And on and on.
Why doesn't God intervene every time? Augustine wondered why, since Jesus had the power to heal, he didn't heal everyone. Wouldn't an overwhelming demonstartion of God's power convert the world and settle all questions about God's goodness? There was such a time when God's rule did overwhelm all obstacles. When he established the nation of Israel, freed them all from Egypt and proceeded to lead them into a land of their own. Even in the face of God's overwhelming power it failed to produce faith. After so much of a failure God decided to abandon that approach. God would start over again this time trying to build a people not dependent on signs and wonders. Yet even still God has compassion for his people. He cannot always turn a deaf ear when they call upon him for help, but he will not be manipulated by us. He is not on demand or at our disposal. Always pray and do not give up. Luke 18:1
Faith and healing go hand in hand as God by all definitions is boundless and limitless so if we tap into that power it brings limitless possibilities that might not otherwise exist. The greatest examples of christian faith require and emptying of self, surrendering up our thoughts, hopes, and wishes, discovering that God holds the solutions to our problems, and finally a literal throwing ourselves at his feet and acknowledging his as Lord and Saviour of our lives. Aquila wondered if there was something in the bible that says it's not necessary to have faith. I believe it is as I know of nothing that says it isn't, however it also says that God has given everyone a measure of faith. Romans 12:3 Faith isn't something easy to come by, it must come from God himself. He doesn't expect us to do it on our own. We don't have to manufacture faith, it is the natural consequence of keeping the ear turned to the voice of God. Faith preceeds miracles, and miracles are not an end in themselves, they focus attention upon something far greater, Jesus's ability to heal the soul. There was a man once who asked Jesus to heal his epileptic son IF you can. Jesus turned the words right back on him. IF YOU CAN All things are possible to him who believes The father then made a strange request. I do believe, help me in my unbelief The man wasn't required to produce faith himself, only to recognize his need of faith, confess it, and ask Jesus for sufficient faith to heal his son. And that is what the Lord did. So yes, I believe we can increase faith by asking God for help and what will we gain? You will keep in perfect peace him whose mind is steadfast, because he trusts in you. Isaiah 23:3
In spite of the frequent references to miraculous healing christians continue to suffer from illness. Some left unhealed, others to heal miraculously. Whatever the world brings, God is up to the challenge and he will either heal or give the power to endure and conquer through it.
Aquila - Are you talking about east vs. west in a long term look, as in including Toronto? Or are you talking about current events?
Amy - I agree that "each one of us can only do so much. We can only do what God has call us as individuals to do." AND I think we would agree that what God calls us to do can vary from day to day. While he gives gifts that may be for us to use for him all our lives and may be considered our "calling," there are times when we will be called to do something outside of our giftings, such as work in the nursery or pray for a sick friend for example. We still need to be obedient to God there, even though it is much harder to obey when we feel unqualified.
And we can't use our personality traits (like Jeff was talking about) as excuses to not obey a calling that seems outside our realm, so to speak. But those traits may affect the way we approach what we are to do, and it may be that God knew that and actually wanted it that way. :)
Thanks Beth for posting. You had some awesome things to say.
I find it very interesting that it says the man in that story (Mark 9:14-29) responded immediately with, "I do believe; help me with my unbelief!"(NIV) He didn't say, "You're right, I don't really believe. Help me with my unbelief." And in the NLT it says, (vs.24) "The father instantly cried out, 'I do believe, but help me overcome my unbelief!'" He said he did believe, yet asked for help with his unbelief in the same breath. Did he believe, or didn't he? This seems to show that we are in need of constant renewal of faith, that we don't have belief once and that's enough. We need to keep going back to the source of our faith and ask for more, more, an even more.
In verse 18 it says the father took his son to the disciples to be healed first, but they "couldn't do it." So he took him to Jesus. In verse 28-29 it says, "Afterward, when Jesus was alone in the house with his disciples, they asked him, 'Why couldn't we cast out that evil spirit?'
"Jesus replied, 'This kind can be cast out only by prayer.'"(NLT)
In my study bible it says "Prayer, not personal power, is essential for miracles. The disciples had the power once to cast out demons [and heal, see Mark 6:13]. They could not take such power for granted. They must pray to God in faith."
So when the man took his son to them and they attempted to heal him/cast out the demon, did they no longer have the faith to do what they had done just days before? Or was it a pride issue? Did they think, "Hey, I can cast out demons and heal people now. Cool." And attempt to run ahead of God by trying to perform miracles without praying first? Hmm.
Well, this same story is found in Matthew 17:14-20 and when the disciples asked why they couldn't heal the boy Jesus responded, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, `Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
So did the disciples lose their faith? If a mustard seed was enough to move mountains, but they couldn't even do what they had already done before, how small was their faith? (How miniscule is mine!) Was it their calling to heal people? I think so. Did they act in obedience, but failed because they didn't have enough faith at that moment? But they had had enough faith a few days ago. What happened?
Thoughts please.
I agree that faith comes by hearing the word of God, and for me that means listening to what He has to say, being quiet so I can hear His voice. That always produces faith in me and helps me see Jesus in my daily life, all around me.
I would say faith begins with what I already know to be true, at the Cross, at the feet of Jesus. I am in need of revelation from Him, for Him to come to me. As far as the question about " steps of faith"--- just to spend time reminding myself of His Truth will increase my faith and help me know how to pray for others in need.
1) Jeff, thank you for offering balance in the question of literary criticism vs. spiritual inspiration. I do not think the two are automatically opposed to one another, but they do seem to be seen that way in some Christian circles. I have some questions about that too.
2) Kim, I totally agree with you (at least I agree with what I think you mean) that obedience to God through vocational call or spiritual gifts doesn't negate regular obedience to do things that one is not particularly gifted in. We don't want to be a group of individuals who say, "That's not in my job description." On the other hand, there are so many many many needs in the world, all needs that Christians are rightly concerned about, that I derive a lot of comfort from knowing that I am only able to do my own part of the work. Nonetheless, my work may include mopping spiritual floors, or burping spiritual babies, or any number of mundane things that might not be technically in my "job description" but part and parcel of my identity as a subject in the kingdom. My concern is that I do not get derailed from the course God has set me on, in order to chase the ministry someone else has been called to.
Amy - I agree totally and was not trying to imply that what you had said was seen as an excuse to refrain from every job except what you are "called" to. We can not spread ourselves thin trying to do every good work, and can only do what we see God leading us to, even if it looks like it is not in our "job description." I fully believe that if we use discernment, we will know, as individuals, what we are to do, and do not need to project that bidding of the Holy Spirit onto those around us.
I'm getting the feeling that we agree :)
The question of why God doesn't intervene every time is really big. I think bethm hit on something key when she asks (along with Augustine):
"Wouldn't an overwhelming demonstration of God's power convert the world and settle all questions about God's goodness?"
Apparently, seeing is not believing.
I was on a trip once, to a very poor country and offered medical relief to local people in a remote mountain area. We slept in large tents, and our medical facilities were also housed in tents. It was right before the start of their monsoon season. We didn't see any gigantic rains or winds. but the weather did kick up a time or two (pre-monsoon). The entire economy of this region is fine tuned to, and dependent upon, the extreme weather pattern of drought-monsoon.
One afternoon during our time there, the weather started to look bad (from our perspective), and as the wind started to blow harder one of my "teammates" started to verbally rebuke the weather. He told the wind and rain to stop in Jesus' name. I did not think highly of his actions, but others seemed quite impressed with his display of faith. They joined in, shaking their fists and speaking in tongues to the weather.
My thoughts are this: The people of that area need the weather to function that way. My comfort and convenience is not important at all compared to the need for food, clothing, and shelter of the people who live and die according to that weather. Who am I to ask God to withdraw his hand of blessing to others, so that I won't be inconvenienced? Am I so much more important? Is my standard of comfort even defensible? Furthermore, our witness would not be strong if the people said: We are so glad the Christians left. Once they did, the rain came back.
It's easy for me to see that we don't always know what is good for us, and that's why God gets to make the call.
But then I look at a tiny baby who is clinging to life and I wonder. How could there be any reason that God would not want to preserve this baby's life and restore him to health? I have no idea.
This thread is slow lately, so I thought I'd throw this out there. I know that I'm a stickler on some points about interpretation. I really appreciated what Jeff said about Holy Spirit inspiration as essential to the process. Yes, yes, and yes! And, I thought I'd clarify a bit about how I see that.
Often, believers find comfort and blessing through certain verses that lead them to righteousness, even when their interpretations of those particular verses are not the most probable meanings. And, if the messages they are encouraged by are affirmed by the whole message of scripture, I do not find "wrong interpretation" problematic (even if those verses are interpreted out of context). This kind of devotional reading is encouraging to many people and I think it is wonderful. The important thing is that these readings do not lead individuals astray by novel and errant interpretations. This is where the leading of the Holy Spirit is as essential as ever to enlighten the scripture for individuals.
As with any method of interpretation, novel ideas and new interpretations are suspect and should be very carefully examined. The validity of any interpretation is always checked by comparison with the rest of scripture. Furthermore, when one's interpretation of the scripture leans heavily in the direction of one polarity or another (e.g., social justice or condemnation for the unrepentant) these wrong interpretations need to be corrected in order to bring a fuller understanding to the gospel message.
The only unipolar interpretation that is biblically sound is to read the Bible as a singular message of: Jesus, God With Us, our Savior and King. As such, this is not an imbalance, but a solid and foundational center by which all interpretations can be measured.
Furthermore, even when an interpretation is technically "correct" and supported by a broad survey of other scriptures, without Holy Spirit confirmation and empowerment, the reader/interpreter is left with nothing but accuracy. When real soul renewal is absent, one would be better off being wrong about which verses say what, exactly, and be moved towards righteousness by Holy Spirit empowered truth. Being academically "right" doesn't make someone right with God.
Now, back to the lull in our conversation.
Interesting thoughts, Aquila.
Now that you deleted your post, I just look sarcastic ;)
Sorry...I posted that on the way out the door, and didnt like part of it when I came back. This editing is all or nothing on this, so I scrapped the whole thing...sorry
I have the same problem sometimes :) I know there is a way to edit posts because I've seen it done on other blogs. I just don't know how to do it. Maybe editing features have to be enabled by the administrator.
Kim,
Sorry it's taken me so long to respond. I never have the time I hope to have for the things that are important to me.
First I'd like to share a quote I received recently from a midwife newsletter I receive. I found it interesting how timely and relevent it was.
Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe."
— Saint Augustine
Faith was always a vital condition to healing. (Mark 5:34, 10:52, Matt 9:29) At times Jesus was prohibited from healing due to insufficient faith by the sick person (Mark 6:1-6) or the community (Matt 13:53-58) He explained to the disciples that they were not able to drive out the demon because they had "so little faith" Now perhaps it had nothing to do with THEIR faith but instead it was the fathers faith who later stated to Jesus he needed help with his unbelief. Since it appears there are more than one component to healing this seems reasonable to me. I think it's also possible as you mentioned that when the disciples tried to do the healing they did not pray first as they did the first time. I think it's important to remember that Jesus was very clear when he did a healing that he did not want the attention on himself but instead on the source of His power, and he credited the faith of the individual. So in other words the disciples only had the power in the first case that had been given to them, and by failing to go again to the source of the power first, along with the fact that the father did not have sufficient faith led to their failure. Does that make sense?
Yes it does make sense.
There is no perfect formula to follow to see miracles. Sometimes those who scoff at miracles are blessed with one that blows them out of the water. Was it because of their faith? Absolutely not. Then there are those that ask and believe with all their heart, but God says no and they have to walk through something the regular way. God is not predictable like that, and that keeps us coming to him in faith. If we had him all figured out, we would rely on our own knowledge rather than faith I think.
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