Let's set some context with this exchange between Peter and Jesus:
When Peter saw [John], he said to Jesus, "Lord, what about this man?"
Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!" (John 21:21-22, ESV)
What a disturbing passage! Jesus neither plans for nor expects the same from any two people. His orchestration for each of us plays a different song.
So let's here and now resolve to get over it!
Because the eyes of our flesh see things in terms of comparison, we are so often sure of the right or the wrong in our lives by how we see others living. But the biblical truth of the matter is that even the godliest heroes we admire are not necessarily setting an example for us--at least not action by action down the line.
Peter went on, as we know, to be one of the most visible of Christ's apostles. And yes, he worked miracles--apparently quite often. The book of Acts is full of Peter stories--accounts of the wonders that showed up with frequency in his life. He was the king of the practicum. But then look at John, more subdued, more "bookish" we might say--and given to some very odd dreams. One Lord--two utterly different courses.
Which leads me to consider how we are to enter one another's lives as brothers and sisters in Christ.
We know that Paul had no trouble "calling people out" (even Peter!) when their behavior was not what Christ demanded. We know that sometimes the best way we steer clear of sin is to place ourselves in a position of accountability to others. We know that righteousness can draw some pretty clean lines sometimes, and when we challenge those who are crossing those lines, we pluck them from the clutches of death (James 5:20).
But we know too that there are other matters, not so clear, that Paul described for the Romans: holy days and holy foods. These, he said, are matters of conscience, sin for one person but not for another.
How odd this varying standard! Unless, of course, God wants us to learn from it His grace. I have found myself, as I have grown older (and I hope you have found the same to be true), that I am getting better at giving others the benefit of the doubt. I once heard the late Mike Yaconelli say that most of our decisions are not between right and wrong but between most right and least wrong. So I am trying to become better too at discerning which battles are bottom line as opposed to those that are probably sent our way from the enemy, who is always glad to set us to fighting for and against things that do not matter. It's a learning curve I anticipate will continue until I die.
QUESTIONS FOR THOSE WHO MAY WISH TO COMMENT:
- How has God taught you a lesson along the lines of what I am talking about--that your call is not the same as your brother's or sister's and that He is perfectly fine with that and is teaching you to be fine with it, too?
- In reviewing Romans 14, what do you think "weaker brothers" have to offer to "stronger brothers?" How about the other way around?
- In light of our recent discussions about the difference in the way churches experience things, do you think there is application of God's different callings for individuals to local fellowships? How do we live with each other, not stamping what we have known of God on others, if this is the case?
God Keeps Leading
11 years ago
48 comments:
Funny you should start this thread.
Under the miracle thread, I posted:
"I do a lot of Bible study. It's not because I'm so holy or righteous. ... I'm [just] lousy at "devotional" reading and lengthy prayer sessions. I'm not wired that way."
At the time, I was thinking about the "weaker brother" being a good way to describe my need for study. Some people just don't need to pull out study tools and dissect the text. They are more able to tune right into meditating on the words in front of them and by that simple obedience be blessed.
I'm not saying that the Word doesn't speak to me just as it stands. It's just that, to a significant degree, I am dependent on a well defined structure (a sort of rule) to put my faith into meaningful practice. In this sense, I consider myself a weaker brother (or sister, if you please).
The interesting thing is, I think I bring a gift to the body, in my own way, through this weakness. This makes me think about the ways that other people, who are the weaker in different ways than I am, bring a gift of their weakness to the body.
Ya, I'm posting on myself again. What?
I'm not really sure that my post above is a completely sound use of the weaker brother notion. But it seems like a reasonable question to me.
Desiring God has this really good article about the subject:
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/2005/222_How_to_Welcome_a_Weak_Brother/
I wonder why Paul chose faith as the substance by which he measured christians by?
Elaborate on that thought, if you will. I'm not sure what you mean.
Some have a strong faith, which seems to imply they are more free to do things because their faith allows them to do more.Others with weak faith seem to be more disciplined and do not have the freedom to do things because their faith will not allow it, so while they are more strict in their lifestyle (looking good) they are categorized as having the weaker faith. Paul uses faith to distinguish between the two. Paul obviously is talking about differences in christians and their thinking, but the core issue here is not their difference, it is their faith.
This is an intriguing discussion, and well within the context of Romans 14, which concludes with this shocking line: "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin" (14:23, ESV).
I think the important thing to remember whenever we discuss faith is that both the actor (the person of faith) and the action (faith) sit far below the object of faith (which should be Christ). We can readily agree that those whose object of faith is not Christ have been greatly deceived; they are climbing a ladder into thin air. Likewise those who place faith in faith, are subjecting Christ to the willpower of the person of faith.
No doubt, Paul always wrote with Christ at the forefront. This includes his discussion of faith. Those who put their faith in their religious practices are weaker in faith because they reduce Christ by elevating these practices. That does not mean that they will not one day be with Christ, say, only that they insist their practices play a greater part in getting there than those of stronger faith, who place nearly all their eggs in the Christ basket and virtually none in the religion basket. (I must insist on nearly all because pride will always creep in and allow us to think we have a lot more to do with both our salvation and sanctification than we do. This is especially important to remember in relation to Paul's opening lines about how we should not pass judgment on the faith--be it ultimately faith in Christ as Messiah--of others.)
I think the question of how catalytic faith itself is in Christ's kingdom will remain in play until we see Jesus. To what extent does our faith "release God" to act? In that faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of God, it's again a full circle scenario, God leading us to God. We're rather haughty middlemen, so I am guessing we think we have more to do with it than we really do. Someday we'll know; today we do our best to give one another the leeway to grow (give the leeway: guard one another from the buffeting winds).
If the disciples, who witnessed wonderous miracles with Jesus, didn't even have faith as big as a mustard seed, surely I don't have much.
But let's just say, for the sake of argument, Peter had one whole mustard seed's worth. If I have twice the faith he had, that's two whole mustard seeds worth! What if a faith-healer has 100% more than I do? That's four! Impressive (most impressive). Four mustard seeds won't even fill an eighth of a teaspoon and would weigh about 8mg total (compare that to a 200mg Advil).
Okay, I realize that this is a metaphor, but the question is interesting. Doesn't it stand to reason that the faith, which enables us to please God, would be at least as big as one's whole self? One hundred pounds worth? Two hundred? Three hundred? That doesn't even sound like enough to me. How can a few milligrams worth of faith be enough? How much is best? How much does one need in order to heal blindness, epilepsy, or cancer?
The thing is, if we think that our faith must outweigh our problems, as though in a balance, we will never have enough. This way of thinking about faith--as though it can be measured and wielded--is completely wrong. We don't throw our faith-weight around and make things happen.
Hebrews 11.1-12.2 is an incredible passage of scripture that describes what faith really is.
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for" (Heb 11.1-2, NIV).
The author goes on to tell about the faith of individuals: 1) from creation to Noah; 2) Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph; 3) Moses, his followers, and Rahab; 4) the prophets and the martyrs. Many of them saw signs and wonders, but the author says something amazing and unexpected about them.
Even with the signs and miracles many of them experienced, "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance" (11.13). This applies to the faithful of the New Testament too (the martyrs were spirit-filled Christians). Did their faith do them any good? Surely they must have prayed to be saved from their troubles. Didn't they have enough faith to be rescued?
When we think of faith as a thing that can be collected and stored and mustered, we have begged the wrong question. We should not ask: Do I have enough faith? There is no answer to that question. It's irrelevant.
The right question is: What is the object of my faith? There is only one right answer.
Messiah.
This is what the ancients put their faith in. Abraham, Moses, Rahab, Joseph, Hosea, Simeon, Stephen ... all had but one hope, one thing to be faithful for: that they would live to see the covenental promise of salvation come to fulfillment.
This is always, always, always the object of faith that is referenced in the Bible. Faith is never placed in the power of healing, or the power of belief, or in the volume of faith one possesses, but in the Salvation of Christ (both now and forever).
We have faith that Jesus is the Christ, the promised Messiah, and that he alone can save us from the wages of sin. This is the faith that heals. This is the faith that moves the mountains of eternal death from our lives.
The thing we hope for, but do not see, should not be the miracles we think we need. It must only be Jesus and our life together in eternity. We have yet to see that come fully, and we continue to put all of our eggs into that same old basket. That is the definition of faith.
I got a little far afield from the original question. I'll get back to that one tomorrow.
I think the mustard seed application is just to teach us that though it feels like what we have isn't very much, It can grow into more than we ever dreamed it would. Thats why God's way is so wonderful. He doesn't limit us, we limit ourselves. I agree that our faith should be "in Christ" but what does that mean? What if the object of my faith is love? What if I have such love in my heart I am compelled to go find hurting people and when I find them I remember the words of Christ, His promises to me "if I believe." One persons faith will only go as far as Christ died for me and Im saved. But another persons faith may take them to being saved, and having signs, wonders, and miracles following them as they travel the world leading hundreds,thousands,even millions to Christ."Faith is never placed in the power of healing"? That is simply not a true statement. "According to YOUR faith , let it be done unto you." How alive is Jesus, and how much do I trust in what He says?Faith in what has been done is great, but why put limits on what is to come. How do you put limits on that? How do you box that? Jesus may be calling you to walk on a little water here...get out of your boat, put your trust in Him, and talk a walk on the wild side.
You are correct, the mustard seed does grow into a mustard bush. That parable is about small beginnings. Totally right. I think there are many layers to that parable. Certainly, one's personal faith journey begins with a seed-beginning ("the smallest seed you can plant in the ground" Mark 4.31). And, that parable is primarily about the kingdom of God. The seed is the small beginning of a humble and unrecognized king that must be "planted in the ground" (literally buried in the ground and figuratively in our hearts) before the kingdom-plant can grow.
The second reference to the mustard seed image is a rebuke. Jesus tells the disciples, in Matt 17.20, that their faith is too small. The word used there is the opposite of "faith." It can easily be translated "unbelief." In the idiom of Jesus' day, a faith that is smaller than a mustard seed is a non-existent faith. It is like us saying, "You don't have an ounce of faith." That means zero. The disciples did not believe. Not then.
You are correct in saying that faith is given in measure. That is scriptural. However, we cannot give the gift of faith to ourselves. We cannot "white knuckle" ourselves into wonder-working. We can only walk obediently, in the direction of the object of our faith (as you said, "get out of your boat, put your trust in him) and he will supply the results. Whatever measure of faith (i.e., trust in God's saving power) one has is a result of God's graceful and sovereign response to the measure of faithful obedience one demonstrates. I think we agree on that.
As to the question of the object of our faith. There is no biblical precedent for putting faith--the hope of salvation--in anything or anyone but God.
The author of Hebrews wrote to a Christian community that was undergoing loss. Members were voluntarily quitting the fellowship in response to the persecution and martyrdom that had befallen them. Hebrews is a series of sermons/teachings to bolster the faith of these Christians. Here are some thoughts on Hebrews 11.1.
"Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see" (11.1, NLT).
“Faith” is the English translation of the Greek noun pistis that, in the context of Hebrews, means: 1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ; 2) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God (New Testament Greek Lexicon).
The author of Hebrews is not defining an unknown word in this verse. His audience (a community of Christ followers) knows that pistis refers to the trust/confidence/conviction/belief that Christians have in Jesus, the Messiah. Instead, he is giving a “working” definition. This is what faith does and looks like; this is what faith is for:
hupostasis: (noun) assurance, substantiation, realization/the reality of something
What are we assured of? We are convinced that, even though we cannot see him and even though terrible things may be happening all around us, our only hope (elpizo) is that Jesus is our rescuer.
elpizo: (verb) 1) to look forward to something coming to pass (with confidence); to hope, to hope for (with an indication of the person or thing which is the object of one’s confidence). 2) to look forward to something in view of the measures one takes to ensure fulfillment; (pos.) hope, expect; (neg.) forsee, fear, anticipate (e.g., punishment).
In Hebrews chapter 11, the thing hoped for; the thing that is not yet fully seen; the object of our confidence, is Jesus, the Christ, the promised Messiah that will save his people from their sins (Mat 1.21). Jesus is the one and only object of our faith.
"Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see"
We cannot see Jesus right now. The life to come is still yet to come. However, we put our trust in God that what he has promised (salvation) will actually happen.
If there is any portion of scripture that contradicts this (i.e., indicates another acceptable object of faith), I am not aware of it.
I found these two quotes and will post them as food for thought...
C.S. Lewis: "We must not encourage in ourselves or others any tendency to work up a subjective state which, if we succeeded, we should describe as "faith", with the idea that this will somehow insure the granting of our prayer.... The state of mind which desperate desire working on a strong imagination can manufacture is not faith in the Christian sense. It is a feat of psychological gymnastics."
A.W. Tozer: "I do not recall another period when "faith" was as popular as it is today. If only we believe hard enough we'll make it somehow. So goes the popular chant. What you believe is not important. Only believe... What is overlooked in all this is that faith is good only when it engages truth; when it is made to rest upon falsehood it can and often does lead to eternal tragedy. For it is not enough that we believe; we must believe the right thing about the right One."
Actually to be more exact "pistis" means faithfulness, faith, and belief. When you start to bring context into it you are now speculating. The same word "pistis" is used in Matt 21:21 where Jesus tells them that if they have faith and do not doubt (diakrino is the greek for doubt here) not only can they curse a fig tree and it will die, they can tell a mountain to go throw itself in to a sea and it will be done (ginomai, which in greek means 'To be, become, happen.)
Here is where I think we miss it. We don't feel that this verse can be true.(Remember, the fig tree being cursed and dying was an actual event.) Therefore there must be some hidden meaning, so we rationalize the verse into something that our faith can accept. Therefore the literal mountain is now reduced to a mountain of financial problems, or a mountain of sins, or a mountain of etc,etc,etc. Thereby we "judge" the word because it does not seem possible to mean what it says. In doing so we have now effectively emasculated the word and reduced it to a clever saying.
Then if we read Matt 21:22 where Jesus says "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer". Now that verse can't mean what it says either because we have already determined that we can't tell a mountain to go jump into a sea. And if we can't take God at His word, where do we draw the line on what Jesus actually was saying and what did He actually mean?
I know that Jesus used parables, but I don't believe these were parables. I think Jesus wanted us to believe God can do anything, and He didn't want us to limit an all powerful God.
In closing that word diakrino, which is translated "doubt" is defined in this way. "To make a distinction" (True or not true) "Judge a dispute" (To make a judgement on something..is the promise true or does it mean something else) "To doubt,hesitate,or waver" If something is deemed to not mean what it says when its time for action we tend to doubt,hesitate, and waver.
As for the quotes of men, they sound good and true, but I was quoting Jesus, and He is the Truth, and that will not change even if it is misinterpreted.
Yes, pistis is a noun that is translated to "faith" which, in simple terms, is a synonym of the word "belief." You get no argument from me there. The definitions I gave describe the nuance with which the New Testament writers used the word.
Nonetheless, this question remains: What is the object of our faith/belief? Do we believe that faith in faith (or love, or patience, or generosity, or John McCain, or peanut butter) is a righteous and God honoring faith? Is there anything or anyone worthy of our faith besides Jesus? Is there anything or anyone we should give credit to for our salvation (whether from our general state of sin or specific manifestations of sin) than Jesus? Do we have any basis, whatsoever, to divert our faith from Jesus to something else?
Secondly, you are correct that some contextual clues are based on conjecture. For instance, we don't, know what the problem was in the Corinthian church that Paul was responding to in 1 Corinthians. We don't have their letter to him. We have to use the clues contained in his letter of response, and what we know about the history and culture of the Corinthian church. None of us were there, so these are conjectures. These are not arbitrary guesses, however. They are based on centuries (actually, two millennia) of documentation and scholarship that have established what we know of the historical and literary setting of the Bible. This information is no less reliable than any other historical information that we all accept as factual. To say that there is no reason or basis to contextualize scripture leaves the text completely open to any old interpretation. One can extract any single verse, or portion of a verse and make it sound however they choose.
All Bible translations require interpretation and are based on educated guesses about what the original texts meant. Unless one can read the original languages, as naturally as a native in the day that it was written, the text is always an interpretation of the original (we don't even have the originals, only copies). This is true even if one takes every word in their English (or Spanish, or Swahili) Bible at face value.
Furthermore, taking every word of Jesus at face value really presents some startling problems. You better sell everything you own and give it to the poor (Mark 10.17-30). Then hit the road, with no suitcase or money, and wander around preaching and hoping someone will let you stay at their house indefinitely (Mark 6.7-11). oh ya, don't forget to poke out your eyes, and cut off your right hand (Mat. 5.29-30). None of those scriptures are parables. According to your logic, they should be read literally. How would the church look if we all did that? Pretty appealing to the world I'd say.
Kim (and others),
I love those quotes. Thanks for sharing them. One reason that I enjoy books so much is that they allow us to listen in on (and participate in) a rich and vibrant conversation that has been going on since long before our time.
Here are a few quotes on what it means to have the Holy Spirit. It could be controversial, so take it for what it's worth: fodder for further conversation given freely from the brilliant mind of a faithful Christ follower,
Helmut Thielicke in Between Heaven and Earth (1965).
"The Holy Spirit has been misinterpreted as an impersonal force and ... thus I can succumb to the temptation to turn the metaphors of 'wind' and 'fire' into independent entities. ... [Then,] I forget that I am 'confronted' with him and I think of myself as the 'possessor' of this power. And then it is easy to understand that I will regard the possessor as being more important than what I possess ... and therefore the one who has control of it. ... This misuse of the gifts of the Holy Spirit has always been the great temptation of the spiritual man" (p. 93-94).
"And faith is characterized by the fact that it is never merely faith in something ... but is always also faith contrary to something (namely, contrary to all appearances which veil God's power and righteousness, which cause him to be hidden under cover of the cross). Faith therefore always remains faith that is vulnerable, challenged, tempted ... [and] never beyond the Psalmist's cry, 'Nevertheless I am continually with thee,' which it utters in the midst of temptation" (p. 96).
"The person who separates the Holy Spirit from the Word that awakens faith wants something more than faith alone. He wants an experience that will supplement faith or make it unnecessary. ... Instead he wants the Spirit to lift him out of space and time, to snatch him away from himself in an ecstatic experience, to give him the gift of sight before the time comes for him to see" (p. 96).
Allow me to re-enter this thread in two different arenas: (1) faith and (2) quotes.
FAITH
Faith simply cannot exist alone. The evidence is as logical as it is biblical (and isn't the Bible exceedingly logical?; if God is the nth degree of everything, certainly He is the nth degree of intelligence, but that's a whole other path).
If I said to you, without prior context, "I have faith," you would be unable to let the statement stand on its own. You would ask either "Faith that what?" or "Faith in what?"
We have already established that the second question makes absolute sense if faith demands an object. And my answer to that question would tell you far more about my faith than any case I could make for my own depth of faith (all arguments for which, by the way, would be almost impossible to separate from pride--the greatest danger of having "faith in faith," for what I am really saying is that I have "faith in my faith").
If you asked instead the first question--"Faith that what?"--I might state anything, for instance, "Faith that my grandmother will live to be one hundred." After such an answer, you would then be moved to asked me on what I base such faith--again bringing us back to the foundation, or object, of our faith.
Hence, faith cannot survive alone; it must have a root, a foundation, an object. And that object is everything.
QUOTES
While it is most assuredly the case that we should not look to elevate the quotes of men (or women) above those of Christ, it is also true that the Spirit has equipped some to be teachers and some to be prophets. These are words-based gifts. That is, the Spirit of God gifts some to speak. Presumably, this means that these people are to do more than simply recite Scripture. They are called upon to illuminate Scripture in a way that furthers understanding by application within a fellowship, a culture, or directly into a person's individual circumstances. With this in mind, I would say, for instance, that I was particularly helped in my understanding by the A.W. Tozer quote that Kim included in her post.
When we exercise our faith "that" something occurs, do we presume to know what is best for us? If we "believe in faith" that, for example, Jeff's grandma lives to be 100, are we claiming that we can decipher between blessings and curses based on our selfish human perspective?
What if she dies one week before her birthday? Did we lack faith or misunderstand the purposes of God?
I choose to put my faith in Christ, messiah, savior, and in doing so I believe what He said. I cant limit Him,and I can't completely figure Him out. So I take Him at His word. I don't advocate putting faith in peanut butter or presidential candidates, but if I had to choose between them id pick the peanut butter.
Kim, those were great quotes, and very true, and well applied to this discussion. Thank you for sharing them.
I wonder what Jesus meant when He said "when I return, will I find faith anywhere on the earth?"
Is there a difference between knowing someone and limiting someone?
Yes, knowing has to do with knowledge of... limiting has to do with a lack of knowledge.
As for my faith...it is in God, and I made the assumption that was obvious. My faith is not in my faith, it is in my omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent Daddy, who loves me, cares about what I care about, invites me to come reason together with Him, sings love songs over me, and reminds me that I am the apple of His eye. And because He feels this way for me, more than I can ever understand...I am not going to rule out that He wouldn't toss a mountain into the sea, if it was needed. He is also going to grow me up in knowledge of Him even more, which will make me trust Him even more, which will increase my faith in Him even more. And my Daddy likes the fact that I have complete childlike faith in Him. My Daddy can do anything! "Worry about nothing, pray about everything."Faith is my spiritual muscle, which is why I "exercise" it. "you have not because you ask not," I mean how many times do we need to hear this before we believe it. And when I start to decide what my Daddy will or wont do.. or question His promises to me...or say we can never be sure what He means by that statement, then I cant really be sure of anything when it comes to my Daddy..and then my faith must turn to my brain, because it cant be in Him with all those factors contradicting what He has told me."I need to keep it simple, and if I err on one side I want it to be the side of too much faith in my Daddy...if there is such a thing.
In closing you are not playing fair . Mark 10:17-30 is a unique case where Jesus is dealing with the heart of one individual. I believe Jesus meant exactly what He said and that was instruction for that one person. Mark6:7-11 are again instruction to his disciples, and again I believe He meant exactly what He said. As for missing eyes, or hands...I would rather be in heaven missing an eye or a hand, than be burning in hell completely equipped bodywise. You are right, none of them are parables... and I am more convinced we should be more concerned with how we look in our Daddy's eyes than how the world perceives us.
Oh brother! I did it again. Why can't we edit these silly comments after they are posted? The following comment is nearly the same as the one I just deleted. Doh!
I decided to remove my last comment because, I think it was far too long, and could have been read as an attack on opinions that differ from my own. My passion for the scripture, combined with my forthright personality, can cause me to stumble (we humans are complicated simpletons). I apologize for droning on and gumming up the discussion, especially to Aquila, since I was specifically responding to his post.
I sincerely hope that more people will start participating in the discussion here. To do so, however, it has to be relatively safe to state one's opinion. To think that one's words may be scrutinized and dissected, probably discourages many from stepping into the conversation.
I won't back down from what I believe to be true, but I will try to use more discretion in the the way I communicate those beliefs.
Amy
I appreciate all your comments, and while I dont agree with all of them, they all go up for consideration.
"knowing has to do with knowledge of... limiting has to do with a lack of knowledge."
Yours is a really interesting way of looking at this question. I completely agree with your first point: "Knowing has to do with knowledge." And, as with a lot of things, my knowledge of God is small compared to all that there is to know of Him. My knowing is partial, but growing. As you put it:
"He is also going to grow me up in knowledge of Him even more, which will make me trust Him even more, which will increase my faith in Him even more." I agree that faith in God can grow as our knowledge of him grows.
However, I must disagree with you on your second point. "Limiting has to do with a lack of knowledge." To my way of thinking, limiting has to do with controlling, or having some degree of power over something. I limit my children's freedom when I don't allow them to go places they shouldn't. I limit my family's hospitality when I put locks on my doors and select the people who are allowed to enter. I have some degree of control over those things, and knowing (as opposed to not knowing) something (e.g., situation, person) is a significant influence on how (by what means and to what degree) I limit those things. In other words, what I know helps define the limits I put on the things I can control.
On the other hand, I have no control over, for instance, a hurricane. I can't hem one in, and I can't make one leave. I also can't create one or encourage one. Hurricane's are completely out of my control, and I am powerless to limit one.
((It could be argued that we simply do not know enough about hurricanes to control them, and that more knowledge of the nature of hurricanes would render us able to limit them. That is possible. But, your statement was that a lack of knowledge would be a limiting factor. In this case the opposite is true: An increase in knowledge would allow for limitation.))
In the case of God, who is vastly more unknown than a hurricane, no amount of knowing or not knowing has any bearing on whether or not I can limit him. And the more I know of God the more I realize that there is no controlling him.
Truthfully, I don't think you disagree with me on this point. Surely we both know that God is beyond the control of any other being in heaven or on earth. We also agree that an increased knowledge of God can lead to increased faith. So my question to you is this:
How does an increase in faith make a person more able to call forth action from the hand of God?
You might be limiting yourself when you say you have no power over a hurricane. Jesus rebuked the storm and look what happened. And while it is true that God is the controlling power source over the hurricane, we limit Him because we don't ask Him to stop it.And why don't we ask? Worry about nothing, pray about everything. This is the kind of limiting I refer too, and I think it comes from a lack of knowledge.
As for an increase in faith, I don't confess to know why God does what He does, all I know is if you don't pray for a paraplegic to walk, you will never see a paraplegic walk as an answer to your prayer. If you will commit to praying for 300 paraplegics to walk, and not get discouraged as you get started, and when you pray, pray with compassion, passion, and fervency, you will see the answer after praying for those 300. God smiles on His kids when they trust Him. Imagine that...putting God in a better mood....hmmmmm
If God is Love, can he ever be in a bad mood? Or does He absolutely delight in me no matter what I'm doing? Can I actually presume that God won't move because I didn't ask Him to? Or is He sovereign in all things always? Did God command us to pray for 300 paraplegics in the Bible? Or did He give some the gift of healing, some the gift of faith, some the gift of administration, etc...
I'm not jiving with you here, aquila, but I love you none the less. :)
Limiting is active. Silence is passive. How does not asking (an absence of action) actively limit God?
You have failed to convince me that I have any power whatsoever to limit a limitless God.
Ok, lets talk about it, can God be in a bad mood? I didn't say that, but what I did say was is it possible we can affect His mood by our actions, faith, life etc."This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased". The word pleased used here is the greek word eudokeo,a verb (action) describing becoming very happy or delighted. Now if God delights in Jesus would He also not delight in us? On the other hand did God delight in the israelites when they made the golden calf(old test) or Ananias and Saphira (new test).Are you saying God delights in everything you do regardless of what it is? What if your heart is proud, and you are oppressing the poor? I don't think He delights in that. God is sovereign, I agree with this...but there is a reason God asks us to pray also. There are things God wants, but because we choose another way, it does not happen. Are you just a pawn in the game of life being moved to and fro by God until you die? That would remove any responsibility you have.
I suggested to Amy to pray for 300 paraplegics and that if she did she would see the answer to her question on how an increase of faith calls forth God's hand. Do you not pray for the sick? Is that not your gift and that is why you don't? God commanded us to love our brother. If you love your brother and they are in a wheelchair and can't walk...isn't the right thing to do to pray for them? If you and Amy were in the congo, and Amy dropped her concordance and it hit you in the head and crushed your skull...and your 800 miles from the nearest hospital, and you need a touch from God, so you ask Amy to pray and she replies "sorry, but healing is not my gift". To think you are not called to pray for the sick and hurting is a different theology than I am aware of.
Amy I read your last answer, and I have failed again to make you think you can limit a limitless God. Ok but why did Jesus long to gather israel unto Him, but they would not come? Matt 23.37. If God wills that none should perish...why are people perishing? One must wonder why we completely remove ourselves from the equation, put it all back on God saying whatever He wants He will do, so I dont need to worry about my part. I wonder why God never stopped Adam and Eve from eating that apple, Why did He even put that tree in the garden to begin with? I am not saying God is not limitless, what I am saying is He wants the best for His kids. This is not about God's ability, its about our faith in Him and His love for us. As a Father who loves you He wants you in the family business, also known as the kingdom of God which is upon you, and because it is upon YOU, you will be affecting God's sovereign world, or He will move on to someone else.
First off, my concordance is on my computer. Since jungles tend to be wet places, it is more likely that I would be electrocuted by my concordance if it fell into my bath. Then Kim would have to pray for me to be resurrected. Clearly, she is unwilling to pray for me (and apparently does not believe in healing miracles or that God hears her prayers) so I am destined to stay dead. The worst part of that scenario is, a perfectly good computer has been ruined.
We both know that this is an absurd example. I would never live in the jungle. Internet access is just way too slow.
P.S., if I ever die in front of you, leave me where I am. I think I'll like it there.
We continue to talk past each other, Aquila. I think much of the problem is that assumptions are being made about my theology that are simply untrue. Fallacious conclusions are drawn by the specific interpretations of my words that are based in those assumptions. Hopefully I can clear some of those up here.
Let’s begin with three basic assumptions I make about the Bible.
1 The Bible communicates a single central message. God’s reconciliation plan, for all of creation, through Jesus.
2 Within that whole and perfectly integrated message, there are “tensions” that we don’t fully understand. For example: Jesus is both fully human and fully divine; Salvation is through grace alone and we must work out our salvation; God freely forgives anyone who repents, no strings attached, and we won’t be forgiven if we don’t forgive others; The wise and learned will not inherit the kingdom and we are commanded to work hard at gaining both knowledge and wisdom. There are tons more examples.
3 Our inability to understand these seemingly contradictory statements is based in our limited human intellect, our limited human capacity to trust God, and (in Western culture) our philosophical filter of Platonism (which is a human invention, unrelated and irrelevant to the way the vast majority of the world interprets reality) which most of us are neither aware of nor able to separate from our theology.
What we hear as contradictions, and divide our churches over (by leaning heavily on one side or another), were not problematic to the Jewish mind, and are not problematic to the contemporary non-Western mind. In other words, the problems we are here discussing are more about American Christianity than about irreducible Christian theology.
Okay, fair warning, this is a long one.
We can foul things up even though God is sovereign
“Now if God delights in Jesus would He also not delight in us? … What if your heart is proud, and you are oppressing the poor? I don't think He delights in that.”
Yup. He delights in us fully and we can grieve him with our behavior. That is the definition of unconditional love. He loves us intensely and fully no matter what.
“God is sovereign, I agree with this...but there is a reason God asks us to pray also.”
Yup. He is the Sovereign of all, the King of all Kings and he instructs us to make our requests known to him. Apparently, it is good for us to ask. I suspect it keeps us ever reminded that we are like children who ask for help from their parents.
Children are not yet skilled enough to take care of all their own needs. Parents who do all the work, do not require their children to learn, and that is not good for their children. When children ask for help, whether in their skills or in acquiring the things they need, the ideal parent only helps to the degree that the child is unable to do for his/herself.
Encouraging asking, and then replying with grace, also teaches children that their parents are welcoming, affirming of their children’s needs, accepting of their children even in their weaknesses, and faithful to help them until they are equipped to stand on their own. I wish I were this loving towards my own kids all the time.
Could it be that God is like this good parent I describe? God wants us to ask. He wants to help us, not only to do things for us, but to empower us to do for ourselves. This does not mean that we ever become independent of God, like earthly children do, but we do grow in strength and ability. Humanity also grows, together through history, and learns more and more about how to exercise the mandate given to Adam: to rule over all the earth (Gen 1.26). I believe this includes scientific developments that improve our lives, and in a sense, grow us up into being more capable of doing some of the work ourselves.
“Are you just a pawn in the game of life being moved to and fro by God until you die? That would remove any responsibility you have.”
Nope. We are not pawns. Freewill allows us to choose for or against God. One must be able to say “no” in order to say “yes.” God wants us to say yes to him. This question relates to the one above, in one of those tensions I mentioned. He is fully in charge, and still we get to choose yes or no.
“I suggested to Amy to pray for 300 paraplegics”
First, I’d have to rustle-up 300 paraplegics. That would be quite a commitment in itself. Then, I would have to establish some degree of personal relationship with each one of them. Then I would spend time praying with each one. Then, I’d have to deal with the aftermath of those encounters.
I believe it is unethical to “wham bam” with people who are in desperate need of healing, people who are severely hurting. What happens to their faith if they are not healed? Do we just say, “next” and leave them to figure out why God healed others but not them? This is a big question that could cause many to fall away, or decide to say no to this seemingly capricious God. Follow up, within a community of believers, is an essential component of this kind of ministry, if it is to be done ethically. Without these safeguards, we could do more harm than good.
This whole concept would require a life of commitment to this specific ministry (i.e., praying for the healing of this many paraplegics--or other physically broken--would have to be my specific calling from God). You may be surprised to learn that my specific calling from God is quite similar to the concept you propose. I am currently preparing for a career in psychological counseling. If you think that this career does not focus on the healing of severely hurting, and often disabled individuals, you are not familiar with the nature of the work. If you do not believe that I will pray for the healing of these people, you wrongly assess my passion for the healing of the wounded. I have faith that God will do a work through me to bring healing to many (even “the least of these”). Otherwise, why would I do it? I have chosen to be educated for this ministry through a biblical seminary that focuses equally on the theological and scientific aspects of healing. This education requires a far larger commitment in both money and personal development than the other means of training for the same career. I am passionately committed to the work of God, and doing my best as his servant.
Furthermore, what is my goal in praying for 300. You imply that it is to build my faith. While I do not doubt your concern for the faith and healing of others, the primary motivation in your scenario seems to be the building of faith for “me.” Is that what a ministry of miracles is basically for?
You have stated elsewhere that miracles are meant for an evangelistic move that brings more sheep into the flock. Yes? If that happens, great! But again, I have an ethical dilemma. I would be utterly remiss if I didn't also plan for discipleship of all those new believers. With all the factors involved in this proposition, I would never have enough time to do the work to which God has already called me.
If, on the other hand, this is your call, go for it! Go team!!!
“If she did [pray for 300 paraplegics] she would see the answer to her question on how an increase of faith calls forth God's hand. Do you not pray for the sick?”
What ever gave you the idea that I do not pray for the sick? Furthermore, if God confirmed to my spirit that I should commit my life to praying for 300 paraplegics (or 10,000, or whatever), I would do my best to obey God in that calling.
Despite your wrong assumption. I agree with you that there is a cooperative nature to the work of God on the earth. That is a great mystery. Is God’s response to my prayers within my control? No. Does his response depend on my level of faith? I don’t think so. I only need enough faith to bring it to him and have faith the God is all-powerful. Whether or not healing occurs is no measure of my level of faith.
“Is that not your gift and that is why you don't? … isn't the right thing to do to pray for them?”
Again, you assume that I don’t pray for miracles and for healing. Where did I say that?
As stated above, I am growing in the gift of healing. In 1 Corinthians, the language used in describing the gifts is pretty clear. The gift of healing is not the same as the gift of miracles. But the gift of healing is something that is given by the Spirit, perhaps in the form of basic personality or innate ability (similar to how some are gifted to make music, innately, but still have to develop their skills to be any good). I believe I have the gift of healing, as does my husband who is an emergency department nurse.
If you are asking if I have the gift of miracles, I don’t know. Maybe I do. Miracles are not meant to glorify the one with the gift. I have known people with the gift of prophecy who don’t realize they have it. That’s totally cool. They move in their gift with humility. Do I rule out the possibility that, the next time I pray for a miracle, we will all see a wonderfully obvious spectacle of instant healing? Why would I rule that out? The fact that it hasn’t happened yet gives me no information about what will happen tomorrow. It also doesn’t stop me from continuing to ask (in faith, no less). There is also no reason at all for me to believe that God won’t give me the gift of miracles in the future (if I don’t already have it).
“[Kim,] If you and Amy were in the congo, …”
I'll answer as though the tables were turned. Duh!
“I have failed again to make you think you can limit a limitless God.”
Yup. God’s limits are God’s business.
“If God wills that none should perish...why are people perishing?”
Maybe God wants us to choose Him. The ability to say “yes” requires an equal ability to say “no.” Some will choose to say no. It’s one of those tensions.
“[You implied that] I dont need to worry about my part.”
Perhaps I was unclear. My part is my responsibility. Yes, I can limit myself in ways that God does not require, nor desire. That is part of what sin is about, exercising my “no” towards God. We all do it. God’s power is not reduced by my sin, but my ability to participate in the work of God may be. There’s a difference. I thank God that repentance and forgiveness are a ready cure.
“I am not saying God is not limitless, what I am saying is He wants the best for His kids.”
Yup.
“This is not about God's ability, its about our faith in Him and His love for us. … He wants you in the family business, also known as the kingdom of God.”
Yup. That’s the plan. But, his plan does not guarantee that spectacular miracles will be done (if that is what you are arguing) if, and only if, I eventually develop “enough faith.” Faith is actually built by persevering, even when there are no signs and wonders.
“He will move on to someone else.”
Yup. I’m sure I’ve missed the boat before, and will miss it again. I disobeyed my natural parents. Now, I disobey God sometimes. Again, you describe one of those tensions. God asks us to obey, even when he knows we will not. He gives us a chance to cooperate, knowing full well that we will say no. Then, he finds some other way to get the job done. If we were perfectly faithful, this would never happen.
But, for any person on earth to determine that I am weak in faith, or disobedient to God, because my call is different from the call of another, is simply wrong. If I don’t move in miracles, despite my cooperation with God, that is God’s business not mine. Mine is to obey, to the best of my ability, and have faith that God is all that he says he is, even when everything I see seems contrary to that fact. Ultimately, I leave the results to my king. He is the redeemer of all, even my failures.
I did not say God delights in everything I do. That is preposterous. God does not delight in sin. I asked if he does not absolutely delight in me, no matter what I am doing. This I believe to be true! If I were to consider the possibility that because, perhaps, my "heart is proud" and I "oppress the poor" that he does not therefore delight in me, then my God would be conditional in his love. That is not the God I serve.
How is it, Kim, that you can be so wonderfully brief? I have to write a novel to make the same point.
sorry Kim, I must have misunderstood. I thought you wrote "Or does he absolutely delight in me, no matter what I am doing" I guess I misunderstood what you meant, sorry. Amy, you make some very good points, I shall certainly take a good look at what you are saying.
Yes, you must have misunderstood, because I stated that he delights in me no matter what I am doing. He does not delight in whatever I am doing. It is me that he delights in. Does that make sense?
It seems to me that God's love is absolute.
Romans 5:6-8
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Talk about your tensions. What was best for all "God's kids" was that His One and Only Kid die a horrible death for us all.
That's the problem with thinking that God wants what is best for us and defining what's best in our terms. What's best in God's terms could look pretty doggone lousy to us. It could look like a thorn in the side; and isn't there some wild irony that the man through whom "extraordinary miracles" happened--Paul--was plagued with an illness(?) that would not go away, despite repeated prayers? Hmmm...
The Bible is so awesome! I love that we are never told what Paul's "thorn" was. We know that it pained him, and that he prayed for relief, but his description is vague. His original audience may have been aware of his specific affliction, but we are left to wonder. It's as though God inspired him to write "insert affliction" so we could do just that. We can imagine that Paul suffered from a physical disability, a chronic disease, an unrelenting battle against a specific temptation, or any other problem we are troubled by.
We are all, even our heroes, in the same boat.
Sometimes I think I wallowed in a sticker patch. I have so many thorns stuck in my side, my feet, my hands, my tires (cyclists will understand completely), I don't know where to start. Please God, pull those dang thorns out and bring your healing! I need a new tube (or heart, as the case may be).
I couldn't help it. My first version of this was replete with typos. It had to be edited.
In terms of our topic, "The Individual Call of God," how have your thorns contributed to your call? How has God redeemed those popped-tubes?
As for me: "It takes crazy to know crazy," or so they say. We often get called into areas of service that we can identify with personally, places where we have been healed. I want to give out what I have received. Some of my thorns have been removed completely, without any noticeable damage. Some have been removed, leaving a scar. Others remain intact and still cause pain (especially when bumped). "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose" (Romans 8.28, NIV).
Amy,
Those are very good questions that have really made me think. I wasn’t able to answer off the top of my head, and I’ve been pondering this a while. That’s a good thing, to really make me stop and evaluate myself. Thanks.
What did I come up with? Hmmm. To answer how my thorns have contributed to my call requires me to, first, know what my thorns are, and second, know what my call is. That’s pretty deep. I recognize the names of some of my thorns perhaps. But a question one might have is how “thorns” are defined. I see some as sin I struggle with, some as character flaws (and/or my humanity or human nature) I am working (with God) to overcome, and some as people who I am placed alongside that I need to figure out how to love unconditionally as we live in community. There may be more.
What is my “call?” I think I’m still trying to figure that one out a bit. There are some things I know am called to, like loving God and loving everyone around me as myself, which assumes I first love myself - that in itself can be an area of struggle only worked out through the knowledge and acceptance of God’s love. Other callings? Well, I see those as how God wants to use the gifts he’s given me to act out love. What does that look like for me? Perhaps mentoring, perhaps counseling, perhaps making music and art as an act of worship and hopefully as a blessing to those around me.
I do claim Romans 8.28 and fully believe that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. I believe that he redeems my thorn wounds and patched tubes to be a blessing to me and to others. So painful situations I have found myself in due to my own sin and choice can be a learning lesson to me, can show me God’s grace and love for me, and allow me to relate to others that might deal with the same pain and growth process. It constantly amazes me how God can take what should bring death and instead breathe his life into it and bring great joy, all because of Jesus and what he did for us all.
That was a beautifully humble reflection, Kim. Thank you for letting us see some of your unfinished business.
I have a book recommendation: Creating a Life Worth Living by Carol Lloyd. The subtitle is A practical course in career design for artists, innovators, and others aspiring to a creative life.
This is not a Christian book, per se, but it contains many practical suggestions for "creative types" who need freedom to create, an orderly enough world that they don't get bogged down in mental and environmental clutter, AND a way to make a living (even if modest) doing what they are gifted to do. It may be helpful to you in your search for vocation. I own a copy and you may borrow it. Let me know.
Thanks Amy. I'd love to read it. Can I get it Saturday? We should be at your poster contest. :)
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