Thank you to all of you who have been interacting with so much interest and thought so far. While this blog was intended primarily for those who consider The Father's House in Fresno their "church home," we have had others join the discussion, and I hope that this causes us all to think on both sides.
It did not take very long for us to reach the point, however, where questions about God being put in a box rose to the surface. This is a phrase that I have considered for a long time now, so I would like to offer some foundational thinking here and invite you all to engage once again.
First of all, you should know, if you do not, that The Father's House was a willing participant during the Toronto renewal often known as "the Father's blessing." We grew both in numbers and in understanding during this time. And perhaps above all, we saw God do things among us that very few of us had ever seen before. We became comfortable with the unusual, and were open to much. In other words, you might say we "let God out of the box." As that renewal waned, so did that kind of work of God among us. We did not change our approach or activity in any intentional way, but the fervor (not necessarily the fervency) died down.
This history is important to understanding one reason why we may be reluctant to "jump back in" when we hear of other similar "moves of God." While the crowds that came around and even stayed for awhile are something that charged us all up, we also have seen just who found TFH to be their long-term place of commitment. Now that we are much smaller and gatherings are rich but not so "exciting," it is important to know that there are certain folks who really love you, so to speak. (Not that the others didn't, just that they didn't stick around when God "left.")
But the second reason is more important. In the ensuing time since the waning of the renewal season, while we still worship with our hearts and pray for one another (and yes, even for great miracles), we have become quite intentional about drawing from Scripture. And Scripture is actually quite clear that not everything that looks like God is God. Consider:
"For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders and lead astray, if possible, the elect." (Mark 13:22)
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders. (2 Thessalonians 2:9)
We must at least, then, be aware that not all signs are "God signs." We must be people of discernment. This is where I must say that I am concerned when some people (maybe very honest believers) suggest that we should simply allow all manner of teaching or prophecy to go unchecked because signs and wonders are happening. The Bible actually allows for no such approach. In fact, when we read of how the seven servers (deacons) were chosen in Acts 6, we see that they needed to be men of "good repute, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom." Those men who would be held up as servant-leaders were to balance their obvious Spirit-filling (an undefined state, by the way) with wisdom.
This said, it is very understandable that there would arise at least two kinds of perspectives when looking at new "moves of God" (especially when these occur far aware from us): those who give the move the benefit of the doubt and those who want to wait and see what this is all about (and when I say all, I think that biblically directed wisdom and discernment do mandate an assessment according to what we know is written in Scripture). Both approaches may be acceptable to some degree, but if wisdom and discernment are not applied, I believe we run the risk of being attracted to false signs that lead to empty or even deceitful teachings. And I'm not sure how accusations that one is "keeping God in a box" while the time is taken to do this are either applicable or acceptable.
If the truth were told, we would all have to admit that there are ways we "keep God in a box." For instance, to suggest that the Holy Spirit only manifests Himself in places where tongues are freely spoken is keeping God in a box as much as saying that tongues were for the apostolic age and not for us now. Interestingly, I don't think I know of any Evangelical church--even those most firm in their cessationist beliefs (no charismatic gifts in our time)--that doesn't pray for God's miraculous hand in desperate situations. The difference comes in how they look for those miracles to be wrought and/or manifested.
QUESTIONS FOR THOSE WHO MIGHT COMMENT
- Do you see ways in which you keep God in a box from your own perspective?
- How great would you say your fear is that we might "get it wrong" if we allow new or unfamiliar teachings to arise among us? Or are you more willing to take that risk as long as miraculous things are occurring?
- After further consideration, do you think it is really possible to keep God in a box? Or will He have His way among us in spite of what we think of Him? In saying that we keep God in a box, are we suggesting that we in some way have power over Him?
God Keeps Leading
12 years ago
36 comments:
I remember Toronto. That was when I memorized Mark 13:22, and 2Thess2:9. People rolling around on the floor, laughing uncontrollably, making all kinds of weird motions, and noises,acting the fool. I know when Toronto first happened in 94 I didn't want anything to do with it.
I agree that we should check things out. I agree that we should think for ourselves,and judge wisely. I believe we should test the spirits and do our due diligence. If we run around chasing every "move of God" on blind faith and a whim, God isnt going to be able to do much with us. I am not a move groupie.
It took me awhile to accept Toronto. It irritated me at first and to be honest I didn't understand why christians should act in such a way. It took me a year to realize I don't understand everything, I don't know everything, and that when people were rolling around on that floor something very holy was happening. It took me a year to admit I didn't know it all, and throw away my box for that time. When I did,God touched me in the most awesome way that it changed my life forever.
If Jesus is lifted up I look further. If praise and worship to the Father,Son,and Holy Spirit are evident I am interested. If fruit is there I am even more interested. If it lines up with scripture then I must look closer.The answers dont come overnight for me, but when they do come I make my decisions.
Since God "left" what has been the result? Why would God leave some churches and not others? There are still churches moving..John Arnott said this two weeks ago. Did God leave them, or did they leave God?
As far as the "history" is this a "once bitten, twice shy" result. And when you use the term "exciting" to describe the atmosphere of that time, aren't you really talking about the manifest presence of God moving in the church in a powerful way. The beauty of the crowds that came around and stayed for awhile is they were ministered too. God was given opportunity to plant seed in them, to reason with them,to love on them...isn't that what its all about.
In the end one might want to look at the fruit. I believe that in the fruit is the evidence of the life. Bad trees don't produce good fruit. Hopefully its abundant and apparent,this life. How great is your fear that you might get it wrong? A great question, but add to that how will it make me look if I get it wrong? Sometimes a highly intelligent person will tend to put more faith in their knowledge. Being so intelligent they are on constant alert to be right and make no mistakes, worse yet make a mistake in front of others. The problem with that is it makes for a defensive stance towards many things, and in my opinion a church should be on the offensive, willing to be a fool for Christ if necessary, willing to take chances, believing God will back them up and honor their faith as they step out to love their brothers more than themselves. That may or may not be true about TFH, just food for thought.
In closing we are surrounded by a lost and dying world. Our commission is to go get them and share the truth with them. Jesus knew what this would entail when He told us to do it. Yes loving on them is part of it, a huge part of it, but there are other parts, power parts, that show God's power. That brings hope to the hopeless, that brings life to the dying, and sight to the blind. I watched last week as a man with a bad back was healed at the revival. The relief on his face, the wonder of it all, the fact that God would love him and accept him so much. That the Creator of the universe would take time to have compassion on him, and change his life.What was interesting about this man is he went because he didn't believe it was God,but he stayed because he felt God's love all over him in that place and he was healed. After we are gone from this earth our earthly body is going to be stuck in a box because we are dead. My fear is we do the same to God when we stick Him in a box. "All things are possible,if you believe" Its important to be wise, but why are we surrounded by so much doubt?
I am sorry that I missed the renewal times. I have been living the Christian life for a few years now (I guess I am still a newby) and learning the truth has been so freeing. Maybe its just me, but I see God working all around us in small ways (not anything like the renewal I have heard about) Small things (like this blog) or yesterday I was talking with my wife about this blog and we both were so excited and happy talking about our church and our Christian life, we both got emotional at the dinner table. I felt the Holy Spirit pounding on both of us at that moment. I agree with aquila about being cautious and in todays world I believe we should be. I look so forward to being part of what God wants for us. Be patient.
Addressing the last question - I think if we say someone or some peoples are "keeping God in a box" that it means their scope of what is possible through Him is limited to what they understand or maybe feel they have some sense of control over. Can they actually control God? Of course not. I think God will do what he wants, but if the people aren't receptive to that, then He probably won't force it. I think it's possible that in gathering of cessationists, that all of a sudden someone might start speaking in tongues uncontrollably, and another would have an interpretation, and that one person would, without knowing just how it happened, stand up and speak out something they feel God wants to tell his people (prophesy), but chances are good that this would not happen, but it could. Why? I don't know. God is mysterious.
I would like to say that maybe we put God in a box by saying that manifest gifts are not being used in churches where that is not embraced and named as such. What I mean is, having grown up Mennonite Brethren, and in Mennonite Brethren churches, there was no embracing of manifest gifts, but there was never any mention that those gifts were for the original apostles either. Did anyone ever stand up and say, "Thus sayeth the Lord..." No. But were there words and scriptures given to each other? Yes. When I became a member at one MB church, the associate pastor welcomed me with a scripture that he had asked God for, that was just for me at that moment. He had it written down and presented it to me in front of the body. Was this not a word form the Lord? I feel it certainly was. Was it not prophetic because he had carefully thought and prayed about it, rather than coming up with it on the fly? Absolutely not. To say that, would be putting God in a box. All this to say that I agree with Jeff that putting God in a box can happen in many ways from many different peoples. How do we stop that? Pray, "Enlarge our scope Lord! Open our eyes and let us see how you are at work in your people - all your people."
First, I'm quite sure that my view of God is significantly smaller than the reality of God, simply because my earthbound humanity is not capable of seeing all that there is of God. If that is putting God in a box, there's really nothing to do about that. It could even be argued that this kind of box is God ordained. Humans are too small to know all there is about God. So, yes, I put God in a box.
Second, since I really can't do anything about my own, God imposed/allowed, limitations, my job is not to try to escape from the bounds of my humanity, but to learn to work within the limits that are set for me. Christians are called to stay within a righteous box that limits the range of behaviors available to us.
Third, Christ's humanity is a box that God allowed himself to be put into. The Bible tells us plainly about this.
God in a box? That's the program, folks.
As a man/woman thinketh, so as he/she is. Who set those limitations for you might be a good question. Im trying to find the box of Christs humanity since nothing was impossible for Him. And then Jesus tells us that these things and greater things will you do if you believe. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" According to your faith, let it be done unto you. If your faith is in your limitations then you are right that that is your condition, but thats not my program, that could for me only be an excuse.
"You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross" (Philippians 2.5-8, NLT).
No I call that a box! That in no way means that I reject the divine nature of Christ or the reality of miracles. I just mean to say that submitting to limitation is not only a mandate for the believer (obedience, discipleship, discernment) but a model of faithful discipleship demonstrated for us by the Incarnated God.
We cannot, with bibilical authority, throw caution to the wind and endorse any behavior, regardless of how favorably we evaluate its so-called fruit.
Faith and works; biblical practice and righteous results coexist in the disciplined Christian life. Behaviors and teachings that contradict biblical teaching can never be justified simply by evaluating any positive happenings that occur in conjunction with them.
Is a boxed God the only imagery I can imagine. Certainly not! God is enormous, grand, great, huge, vast, eternal, and magnificent. There is no superlative that comes close to describing his magnitude. But, as I see things, it is really none of my business what God chooses to be and do (how big or what shape). Whether or not I put God in a box is an irrelevant question to my way of thinking. My concern, my highest responsibility, is to respond to biblical truth along with the Holy Spirit's leading within me, and to behave in ways that are totally consistent with the bounds that have been placed on me by God himself.
For, how can I call myself a Christian if I disregard the commands of God? How can I say that I am a follower of Christ if I throw off the "box" of the gospels and the epistles?
I know, I know. Bear with me friends. I am long winded and full of thoughts. I seem, also, to have a habit of posting twice in a row.
I was just thinking about something that Aquila said that I wanted to throw my thoughts in on. It's something that I have heard so many times that I think it's worth addressing.
Philippians 4.13 "I can do all things..." is often referenced as a kind of guarantee or license. It is also frequently combined with other verses such as John 15.7 ("Ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you") to make a kind of "fruit salad" of Bible verses that don't really go together. Contextually, they mean very different things.
In the case of Philippians 4.13, Today's New International Version renders a very faithful translation of the original language. Paul is writing about his ability to live with contentment, for the sake of the Gospel, in any and all circumstances that have been his lot.
He then informs the Philippian church (vss. 14-19) that he will be okay, with or without their financial help, but that he is very grateful for the help they sent.
"I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all this through him who gives me strength" (Philippians 4.12-13).
Not here, nor in the surrounding text, is there any reason to believe that Paul's intended meaning is that God will grant him success in everything he tries to do. What he does say is that God is the one who gives him strength to endure all of life's challenges with contentment. Furthermore, we have no indication at all that Paul's meaning to the Philippians was any different than the meaning that we should now take.
We would all do well to learn the lesson of contentment in all our circumstances, and that God is the one who gives us the strength to do this. We would also do well to be careful in how we use Bible verses. They are not legos that can be pieced together to construct anything we choose.
I guess i owe you an apology. We obviously got into different meanings of "God in the box" If Jesus wants to limit himself, thats fine...but I am not going to limit Jesus, His Father, or the Holy Spirit. As for the misuse of the bible verse, you are probably right but i think im going to go on believing I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Maybe thats why faith is the substance of things hoped for, but not seen.
No apology necessary. One thing I've learned about online communication: clarify, clarify, clarify. It's totally cool with me if it takes a few tries before we understand each other.
Amy, I would like you to clarify some things for me so that I can better understand you.
If our view of God is small compared to how big God is, how can we say with any certainty that something is not of God? I would like to know why Todd Bentley is not of God, and feel free to use scripture to show me.
While God does put limitations on bad behavior, I do not see anywhere where He puts limitations on good behavior or our faith. And I see no where in the scriptures where we are to put limitations on how He works, whom He chooses to use, or methods He chooses.
Why do you say I am throwing "caution to the wind and endorsing any behavior" when it comes to the "Lakeland phenomenon".
IF fruit is something we are to examine and use to discern, why is this situation "regardless of the fruit"
How does faith, and works, coordinate with the discipline Christian life of Todd Bentley? How does his behavior contradict biblical teaching in your view of things? Also if it is not God producing this fruit because He can not endorse this man, who is producing this so called fruit, and positive happenings?
You say its really none of your business "how God chooses to do be and do,(how big or what shape),yet you say if Todd Bentley is how God works, then you want no part of serving God?
Are you saying that Todd Bentley throws off the gospels and epistles in his behavior? That he disregards the commands of God?
Are you saying we can't do all things through Christ?
How do you interpret John 15:7?
As we learn the lesson of contentment, should not we eagerly desire also. And if we are content why should we stir up the gift inside of us?
Do you think its best to have a shoot for the stars theology where nothing is impossible for God, or a I know my place theology where it is what it is.
Would you like to see more miracles in your church, more healings of the physical type, more signs, and wonders or are you content with church as it is, and by content I mean satisfied.
Aquila,
I am more than happy to answer your questions, from my point of view, but I'd like to hear what other people have to say first.
While I am enjoying the discussion between Amy and Aquila, I'm going to stay out of this, mainly because I have nothing to say. (A shocking statement if you've spent more than 15 minutes with me.)
Anyway, I think I'm going to address the second question that Jeff posed.
I am very skeptical of new teachings....And for no good reason. I find that I sometimes have a wall up when I attend another church or if I hear another opinion that I may not have yet heard at TFH. And thinking about this, isnt't that sad? I mean I know that it's good to question things, but when I enter a new place of worship, why have up this wall? Why be skeptical? I remember feeling the same way when I entered TFH for the first time. However, it was the people and the peace I felt from Jeff that made me want to go back. I guess that was God's spirit shining through everyone.
So then I have to ask, am I afraid that I'll get it wrong? Am I afraid that God will not be where I am? Possibly.
But, then I have to remember that God is always where I am.
I am afraid of getting it wrong. I think in a way we all are. I would hate to get to heaven and see buddha sitting there shaking his head, asking me why I never got to the age of enlightment. (kidding)
I think you have to be skeptical, and that could actually be a gift from God. There are so many teachings out there, and because the human condition gets involved, they all claim to be right. Different churches and denominations are here because we humans all claim to be right.
The nice thing about Jesus is He has a fragrance about Him. When He is in it, you can smell Him, taste Him, and sometimes He shows up in the strangest places.
That is why I believe spending time alone with Him is so important. Not studying, or reading or doing anything...just waiting on Him, and when He comes in the room, oh the fragrance...the atmosphere. And then I go someplace new, and im skeptically checking it out, and all of the sudden I get a whiff of Him...and I say "its You", and He says "Yes, its Me" and I relax.
Tiffiny,
First of all, it's really good to see you here.
I think it's really good to talk about this idea of "fear" and "skepticism" and how they relate to self protection. Recognizing the feelings, leads me to another set of questions:
1) What am I afraid of? Ideas, behaviors, people...?
2) Am I in actual danger or imagined danger?
4) What thoughts are leading to these fears?
Fear is a very useful emotion, it can keep us safe, when appropriately understood. It's like physical pain. A burning sensation in my hand, for instance, could be understood as a reason to "run" (e.g., remove my hand from a flame), or to "overcome" (e.g., to submit to the pain of an important medical procedure). Discerning the difference is essential for deciding how best to respond to the feeling.
So, the wall you describe, the skepticism "for no good reason," is not necessarily a bad thing. It can be protective. However, It can also prevent someone from submitting to an important change process.
Four more questions come to mind:
1) What is the Holy Spirit speaking to me through the Bible, my community, and my spirit?
2) Is the thing I fear actually dangerous?
3) What is my wall made out of?
4) What might happen if I step out from behind the wall? Consider a wide range of possibilities.
This is my thought process, anyhow. I wonder how other people assess, and respond to, their fears.
Please excuse the deleted comments. They were duplicates (with minor edits). I wish there was some way to edit after posting.
Some very good discussion here, and I am appreciating the spirit of conversation that is taking hold. It seems to me we're getting better at saying things well.
Here are a couple of comments in the thread:
Regarding John 15:7 ("If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish and it will be given to you"), which aquila asked to have interpreted: I would suggest that there is no way, in the face of what we see occurring in the world around us, to interpret this passage in a "wish granted" fashion. There are simply far too many people (thousands upon thousands at least) of whom we could never dare say they are "outside of Christ" who have not had their prayers answered in the affirmative. That is, godly people always have and always will be denied what they believe are God-centered requests of Him. Businesses fail, best friends die, marriages crumble, children rebel--you name it. Where does this leave us with regard to this passage and Psalm 37:4 ("Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart")? Hard to say. But I just don't think we can declare that all those who don't have their requests given to them are actually not remaining in Christ, not when pretty much every other indication would show that they are.
With regard to Todd Bentley, I would have to argue that it is always very difficult to assess the godly character of someone who is (a) distant, (b) on stage, (c) on TV, or other similar places that do not allow for real world observation of his or her life. I think tiffiny stated personally a most important universal idea: the immense value of connecting with a local fellowship. Here, as God leads you into connection with these people, you will grow in trust. Combine this with Bible-based teaching and openness to the Holy Spirit's influence on our lives, and you will have a place you can call home. Will this place agree with everything that is taught in other places? No. But then we must rely on the wisdom of Scripture again, where we read in Romans 14:5: "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." If, from your perspective, others are more or less open to certain miracles, manifestations or teachers than they "should be," this may simply be about where God has led them. More than that, according to Romans 14, there is much grace to be given to those who do not see things as we do, especially when this is a matter of "difference in faith" (another rather tangly issue). I guess what I would say here is that we would do well (maybe best) to set aside trying to convince other believers that something is or is not "of God," and turn the bulk of our attention to trying to convince unbelievers that He is God. Our fights should not be against those who have God in this box or that, but for those who do not have Him at all.
I'm cracking up, Jeff. As you were commenting on this thread, I was on the other. We said a lot of the same things but in our own words. Both of us talked about unity in light of differences. Cool!
I agree that assessing the personal character of someone with whom I have no personal relationship or contact is pretty near impossible. Even men of God can and have taken hard falls, in public no less.
I also agree that we each must take responsibility for determining our own best understanding of God's leading, and then act in obedience. God often takes us in different directions. Maybe it's because we have different things to learn on the way to our common destination.
I did not know we were fighting. Thank you for sharing what John 15.7 means,and doesn't mean to you. I had to go back to the beginning on how this all started. I believe it all started with a Big God, and how can having a Big God play into our lives, the church,and the lost. In regard to Mr Bentley, I am glad we have come to the conclusion we should not judge someone so far away and unknown. As for turning the bulk of our attention to non believers, I think that is where much of the attention has been. You see with a great big God, signs,wonders and miracles being enacted at TFH, I think non believers would come running,and with very open minds.I know your church has a great desire to reach the lost, (doesn't it?)and while this is not the only way to reach the lost,I believe it is the most effective. I also believe that is why Jesus used these gifts, because it was the most effective way. I think thats why He told us to do the same and promised us we would "if we believe". I believe that is also a sign of a mature well rounded church. I have no doubt that you are very equipped for eloquent speech to share the love of God and their need for a savior once the lost get to your front doors. You see the signs wonders and miracles are for the lost,and not so much for us. After all this conversation its obvious signs,wonders,and miracles are not a priority with the congregation you already have, but that does not mean these gifts would not come in handy with the lost.Jesus is the Prince of Peace,and He is also a Mighty Warrior. As I stated earlier, all this I have stated is not to cause controversy as much as it is for you to consider. With all that said if I am reading between the lines you would like me to end this type of conversation, and I have no desire to kick a dead horse.
Thanks for your continuing commitment to challenging us all to think afresh, aquila. I would note simply here that I don't see that we can say that signs and wonders are primarily for unbelievers.
First, Jesus criticized the most unbelieving of all, the religious leaders, for continually demanding a sign. Those who are hardened are going to just keep asking for more proof (in the form of signs or science or whatever) and never believe. So while signs are for some unbelievers, they are not for all unbelievers.
Second, in a world that is increasingly secularized, and in a universal church that is following right along, I would say that signs and wonders have more value than ever before for those who say they believe. This is because the more our faith is challenged in the marketplace, the more we will need to have it fortified among fellow believers
Hence, signs and wonders do all of us good. Still, because of the way that God has wired us differently, some will rely more on signs and wonders and experiences, while others will fortify their faith more with study and discussion and quiet meditation. To say that one or another of these groups has "more of God/Christ/the Holy Spirit" is just plain wrong (no matter how much I love the person who is saying it). The fact is this: we all need "more of God." That's a desire of our heart He will certainly always honor! And it's a desire we should encourage in one another, as you, aquila are rightly trying to do among us.
With due respect to the previous thoughtful posts, I don't think we've asked the right question. More accurately, we haven't asked the questions in the right order. The first question is "So what?" Assuming (without deciding) that the Lakeland phenomenon is of God and Mr. Bentley is reasonably on target, is it relevant to us at TFH? Only then do we start judging fruit and the size of the box (i.e., how the fruit is packed), etc.
Is Lakeland consistent with the current direction that we feel we've been given for TFH? If not--and I reserve judgment on this--what do we do with it? I find no scriptural basis for changing course from previously given instructions without explicit direction to do so, regardless of whether God may be very clearly "over there."
What are the current instructions to TFH? I cannot clearly articulate all of them, but I am increasingly convinced that we must pursue and develop the priesthood of all believers within the congregation. We have been making baby steps in this regard but must learn to walk with adult strides. I am gravely concerned about introducing anything that would retard that progress, regardless of how Godly it may be in another context.
The Renewal was brought to us by leadership and by outside speakers, etc. The congregation participated to an extent through the prayer team, but for the most part individuals experienced God on an individual basis. This was certainly appropriate for the time, but the Renewal did little to actually forge bonds among us. Which is probably why many who came during the Renewal subsequently left.
I don't think TFH can go back to the way we did things 1996, regardless of how present God was at the time. If, however, Lakeland can be a "grassroots" experience, spreading horizontally among the congregation as opposed to being dispensed from the top down by leadership and outside speakers, I'm much more willing to consider taking some of the risks Aquila urges us to take.
I appreciate your comments Davdh about how these events we have been discussing affect us at TFH. I also have been thinking a lot about what does God want for us at our church. I am convinced that one of the top desires of His heart is for us to love one another. I think this is what you touched on in mentioning "forging bonds among us." I believe we will be powerful witnesses for Him in this world if we would love one another and walk in His authority.
I think its a wonderful direction to pursue and develop the priesthood of all believers in the congregation. I think that is a mandate for all churches, a noble task indeed, the equipping of the saints. (At this point I must confess that I am not sure how pursuing the gifts, and I mean all the gifts, would retard this process.)
That being said, the commentary on what has happened to TFH since the "renewal waned" is intriguing. It almost sounds like it may have done more harm than good in the long run. I hope that is not the case, but anytime a body loses a member I know it is painful.
The other night I was watching the florida "phenomenon". Todd Bentley was laying hands on every person in the place asking God to impart to the people the gifts so that they could take the gifts back to the local church. He stated "I want the whole world to have this, and I want Jesus to spread it to the whole world. I am trying to work my way out of a job." He went on to say it was not about him, it was about Jesus, and he felt that Jesus was using this to bless His church so that the church could take this outside the walls and go minister, minister with great faith. (I think its important to know when you are ministering that there is more than just knowledge to share, that there is prayer and power from God for whatever you are ministering too. I also think this knowledge encourages one to minister more effectively and more often)He also pointed to his tattoos, and said "If God can use me, He can use anybody. I don't care if your a pastor, a deacon, or a janitor, this anointing is for anyone who wants it!"(You have not because you ask not)
My question to you is this. What is the purpose of developing the priesthood of the congregation? And when you as a church have accomplished it, what will be the next direction" Is not a priest supposed to minister? And to whom should he/she minister" I believe our High Priest set the example. You can go to school for 10 years, but theres nothing like a little on the job training to teach someone.
25 years ago I was sharing with a group of graduating "priests" at a college. We talked about "intelligent design" In it we discussed how the human body was designed. We take in a little food (energy) and then we go burn that energy, and then we go get some more food. If a person takes in food, doesnt burn it, and keeps taking food in then pretty soon they become fat,lethargic, and complacent. And unfortunately this intelligent design becomes useless and is wasted. I might suggest this could be a good design for developing the priesthood of the congregation. Sound teaching, along with some on the job training whatever that may look like.
I guess the "so what, what does that have to do with us?" is if your congregation of priests were equipped with all the gifts, wouldn't that just mean more good ministering for all involved,more faith for those ministering, and why not be known as an organization that turns out the best workers.
I don't know if anyone checks this thread anymore, but I want to ask aquila something.
It sounds like you assume that our congregation is NOT equipped with all the gifts. Is that where you are coming from?
Only you can answer that, Ive never been in a church equipped with all the gifts and seem them operating on a regular basis. Most have love gifts,administration gifts, but i rarely see a church flowing in the dynamis or power gifts.I have never heard of a church congregation dwindling in size when those gifts are readily in use. Power gifts take great faith, and focus. They must be eagerly desired, and come with a cost that is high. It does not appear to be a highly desired gift at your church. But for all I know you could have paralytics walking, blind seeing, deaf hearing,and countless other power miracles happening on a regular basis. But if you do...you are going to probably need a bigger building.
Thank you for your reply. You are not alone in your assessment of the church and the Christian life.
I read something very different in 1 Corinthians (especially chapters 12-14).
As for desiring the gifts: I think most of us desire the gifts insofar as God deems fit to give us the gifts. We pray for miraculous intervention on a regular basis. We lay hands on our sick, and we anoint each other with oil and pray for an increased portion of God's power and presence. At the same time, we recognize that God gives as God chooses.
Hopefully, we are usually desiring the better way: to abound in love.
What is it that you read in corinthians that is different? Could you elaborate on that. I am finding it very good, and healthy for me as I am getting other view points. I find my understanding growing, and it seems to be helping me get out of a box like thinking also. Thank you all for your thoughts, and letting me share mine.
Aquila, I hadn't checked this thread for a while. I'll post some thoughts tomorrow. I'm gonna call it a night.
For DavidH...I think those of us who were really invested in TFH during renewal would say we were bonded in a deeper way than we had ever experienced. For me this is true even this many years later. Praying for and with each other during those years brought a love for one another like I have never seen or known. Just some thoughts...some left because the "party" was over. Others left because there is such a longing in their hearts that they literally didn't know what to do. I'm not saying this was the right response. It's just many didn't know what to do next or how to incorporate this experience into how their my spiritual life is now being formed. I'm sure you all know who I am so let me be open. Many of us would not have become friends because our lives were so different. Even within the context of church family we would have stayed acquaintances. But I so grew to love you. Joining together in ministry, worship, prayer, learning, etc caused a connection that will never be broken in me. For the most part when I think of you all (individually) I am moved to tears because of what we shared and the fact I miss the continuation of that relationship. Having lost the geographical closness is one of the liminal spaces God has brought to further my own spiritual formation. Ok, too long of a response for a thread that has probably died but I had to say it. Still love you.
Hey Cathy. I’m glad you responded. I agree with you that strong bonds were formed during that time. I didn’t show up until 1998, but I got to enjoy the end of the ride. I would even add that some of the friendships I enjoy today might not exist had it not been for the renewal. Seeing people step out and use their gifts and pray for others, etc, really allowed me to see God in them and appreciate them for that. That may have happened eventually anyway, but I think it really helped speed relationships along. And I too love, really feel mushy love feelings, for so many people that were and are a part of TFH. I can still feel your toes on my feet as you would pray for me Cathy. I loved how you would do that. And the look of joy on your face when someone would give me a word and encourage me – I felt like your favorite child the way your face would beam for joy at my encounter. I felt loved by not only God, but by you as well. Thanks for that.
Now there were many people that came and went that I did not bond with. Perhaps that was my fault, perhaps theirs. I agree that the people who were really invested bonded. I think DaveH might even agree if he thought about it. ☺
Thanks, Kim....sniff,sniff. Tears. All those things you observed were true completely from my heart. It encourages me to see you pressing on. See you in Sept?
Definitely. How long will you be in town? Maybe you and Brad and Chris and I can go out sometime and catch up?
Let me get back to you. I wish I had time to spend with several people. To be completely honest...I haven't seen my girls since December. My arms are aching to get a hold of them. But, I'll let you know. Thanks.
Aw. Sure thing.
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