And now you know one of my least favorite questions in the world.
Even before I moved into my present role as lead pastor of this local fellowship, this question bothered me. Often it came from friends and family who attended somewhere else, and when we met up on Sunday afternoon or evening, they might ask (and I am sure it was innocent), "How was church today?" or worse yet, "Was church good today?"
Can someone please tell me what an appropriate answer might be for these questions? Certainly it is not: "Well, as a matter of fact, it stunk. The music was a virtual cacophony, the pastor droned on with no apparent point in mind and no sense of the clock, the Sunday schools were obviously mismanaged as at least three kids came running and hollering back into the sanctuary, and when the offering was taken the usher glared at me when he saw me pass the plate without putting anything in." Maybe this is the kind of response I should give, just to see what the reaction would be (especially with regard to the droning pastor!), but honestly, who in their right mind would ever respond with a negative comment, even as simple as, "Pretty bad"? Wouldn't this invite the pregnant, "You ought to try our place next Sunday," or if not that then, "That's too bad. Things were rockin' at our place. We had Michael W. Smith there to do some guest leading on the piano, then Franklin Graham decided to drop in and preach the message. Plus, they introduced an ATM in the back of the building, so now I can walk right up and slide my card for my tithe. And you should have seen my teenagers when they came out of youth group--their hair was cut neat and trim!"
All this tongue-in-cheek aside, I am shocked at how smoothly we American Christians slide into the church-as-event mode. Church is not a concert! It is not a play! It is not a stump speech! I shout this as a lover of music and drama and--well, no, not political campaigns. But what I wonder is why we think we can evaluate church as we would evaluate a party. Rotely, we say, "The church is the people." Yet regularly we call it the building or the event or the organization. Yikes!
QUESTIONS FOR THOSE WHO MIGHT COMMENT
- Have you shared my experiences? my consternation? my laughs?
- What evidence have you seen of the "empty self"--inordinately individualistic, infantile, narcissistic, and passive--of which J.P. Moreland writes? And do you agree with his conclusion that "given the impact of the empty self on all of us, we can no longer afford to do church the way we have frequently done it. We can no longer afford to build churches largely around powerful communicators who do our studying and thinking for us, and we can no longer build our services around providing bits of entertainment for an hour or so a week. Already addicted to passivity and entertainment, these are precisely what empty selves are looking for"? (Kingdom Triangle, pp. 142-143)
- How might we contribute to the rise of a refreshed perspective on and new language about church?
God Keeps Leading
11 years ago
38 comments:
Jeff,
Can you give me more info. on your reference to Morgan? I have two articles here that talk about similar questions. One by Ronald Rottschafer; the other by Ronald Nydam.
Church is always good for me. 'If' I seek Jesus and the Holy Spirit and not the pastor or the builing. That's not what church is about. It is to enter into His courts with praise and thanksgiving....look for 'Him' and you will find him. He is always faithful, gentle and good. All teh rest, the teaching and fellowship is icing on the cake. Church is always good!
You mean, church isn't about ME and what I want???
Wow.
Just kidding, of course. Boy have we been hornswaggled by marketing, haven't we?
I agree with anonymous, church is always good. Even when I'm in a lousy mood, the kids are being bratty, the music is mediocre (not that it ever is), and the teaching goes over my head, I never regret my decision to go.
When I consider the "How was church" question, two more questions arise:
1) What is the purpose of church/the church?
2) How do we balance experiential learning and academic learning? Is one more valid, spiritual, Christian, or valuable, than the other?
How was church ? People seem to have a preconceived notion of "church". I say "Worship" because thats why we are there. The Church part is secondary, but necessary to the whole part of being there to "Worship". The best Worship service is when there are no distractions and we can fully give ourselves to our Lord. The least best is my mind wandering without God in it. So when someone might ask, How was church ? My answer...Worship is always great, church was ____?.
dlb (cool logo-name by the way),
I'd like to hear more about the distinction you make between church and worship.
Have you ever wondered why there are so many different Christian denominations. Its really just the way they practice in their church. The worship part seems somewhat similar everywhere, but church practice is what seems to be the main difference. I have visited many churches and many Christian denominations. Some were fun, some boring and one I ran away from as fast as I could. For me I associate the word "church" to the way they practice and the word "worship" as a personal relationship with God as an individual and as a congregation.
Let me see if I understood. Practice is the external expression of worship, which is an internal communication with God. Is that right?
When you say "practice" are you referring to the style of the worship service or something else?
I think of practice and worship as being synonyms. Both involving external responses to internal beliefs. The practice/worship are communication (communion) with God and with others in the community of God.
To try to answer some of Jeff's questions...
I have had similar experiences/frustrations. For me it's having people come up and say, "Worship was good tonight." I know they are just trying to be encouraging or exhorting, but it frustrates me when they show their ignorance. I know I am ignorant about many things too, and this is an issue of semantics, but I am trying to rethink the way I speak about the way we live out our lives as "Immanuelites" (see other blog) and about what happens when we gather together as a body of believers, or church. Someone came up to Chris (my husband and the worship pastor) Saturday night after the musical portion of our gathering and said, "Good job." Chris responded with, "You too." The guy kind of chuckled. It's so true though that what happens off stage is JUST as important as what happens on. In fact, I wish there was no stage sometimes. We all have a part in worshipping together corporately. Some of us worship with a guitar in hand, some by dancing, some by kneeling, some with a tambourine, etc. And that’s just about music. It’s all worship.
As for JP Moreland, he’s right in saying “we can no longer afford to build churches largely around powerful communicators who do our studying and thinking for us.” Again, we are all called to be a part of the ekklesia experience. We all bring something to the table, and when we rely on one guy to do all the studying and thinking for us so he can then spout out a short sermon to sum up all the research and learning in an interesting hour or less, well, yes this is what the empty selves are looking for. I have been screaming on the inside (and complaining a bit on the outside) for months about the addiction to passivity I see. BUT, this is something God is working on in ME. I need to quit being so passive as well. I want to worship with abandon, not just for 2 hours a week when we gather together, but all the time.
Maybe the problem starts with worship. Maybe worship would be better served with several worship leaders. First worship leader would be in charge of the music, and the musicians. Second worship leader would be in charge of the dancers. Third worship leader would be in charge of the flag carriers. Fourth worship leader is in charge of the banner wavers. So that in the end, instead of everyone being entertained by the worship leader who is in charge of the music, everyone has a contributing role that changes their motive from watching to valuable participation in a clearly defined way. When I go to church I know their is a time of worship where I sit and listen, I can sing, but basically its wide open. Now If I chose to be a flag bearer working with other flag bearers who coordinated with the dancers, who coordinated with the music? And we went from passivity to specific participation, all in the name of honoring our God. It would be like putting on a grand production for an audience of One, and everyone knows their role and has their purpose. Then we are not there to be entertained, but to entertain and honor God with clear purpose.
In response to Jeff's question,"How might we contribute to the rise of a refreshed perspective and a new language about church," I would have to say to express myself to others about my experience of "being together as a Christian family" using intriguing words, not familiar ones. We're limited in our language but I'd say,"My time with my Christian family the other night was great---I connected with God, His people and was built up spiritually." How about "corporate encounter with God? " That could stir up a good conversation with someone who only sees "church" in terms of the quality of a sermon preached from the pulpit.
I like what Kim & Aquila said.
Amy....You are correct....but, when a church practice (human side) doesnt go in perfect harmony with someone in attendance or vice versa...what then? I know you cant please all the people all the time and we are not meant to, but sometimes that kind of thought can appear. Worship is always great and wonderful for me no matter what, but church (which is run by people that can make mistakes)can be great (which enhances the overall experience) or could be not so great. Thats why I tend to view "church" and "worship" as separate yet they need each other to work. And when they work together in harmony (which is a majority of the time) I am on cloud 9 all week long.
Isnt a difference in opinion great.
Have a blessed day.
Jeff wrote,
"I am shocked at how smoothly we American Christians slide into the church-as-event mode. ... What I wonder is why we think we can evaluate church as we would evaluate a party."
Yes, yes, and yes. Sometimes church is great fun. Sometimes we love getting together, and the enjoyment of each other's company flows very naturally and spontaneously. Other times, people are annoying, crabby, demanding, and it's not all that much fun. Most of the time, church is church. Church is good.
I love that there are so many metaphors available to us, all in scripture, to describe the Church. As these regard our local gatherings of Christians that we call (small "c") church, the Family of God imagery can be very helpful. Hopefully, we all have a core group of individuals whom we refer to as our family. These are unqualified family members (i.e., not school-family, or work-family), the people in our lives that are non-negotiable. We don't trade them in for new ones, and we don't throw them away. What comparisons can we make between our human families and the Family of God.
I don't know about you, but my family dinners and parties run the gamut. Sometimes, they are such great fun that we don't want the night to end, and finally pour ourselves into bed well after midnight. Other times, tensions run high and tempers flare, and there's repair work to be done in the morning. Mostly, we have a nice time together. It's just good to be in each other's company. We get to know ourselves and each other better. We share the process of creating a mutual history that enriches our lives and feeds into our eternal future. We don't get to choose most of these people. Yet, they are the most significant persons in our lives, bar none. This is a like-it-or-not situation. These are the people we come to for support and refreshing. They are the safe home-base that readies us for the demands of the world.
I tend to think of the Family of God in the same terms. Like-it-or-not, I am committed to this group of people. Specifically, I am committed to the folks at TFH (as a representation of the larger family). I didn't exactly choose everyone, but they are "it" nonetheless. Sometimes it's great. Sometimes, not so much. That's life.
I don't see anywhere in the gospels, or elsewhere in the Bible, that church is supposed to be a non-stop pep rally. We are exhorted to be of sound mind, long suffering, prudent, self sacrificing, and disciplined. Think of all the ways that being in our own families requires these things, deference and selflessness, patience and kindness, forgiveness.
My main point is this: Just because meeting together for worship at church doesn't always seem wonderful and amazing, doesn't mean that it isn't. It's a work of God that any of us sign up for this gig at all. Be of good courage. Fight the good fight. Run the race to win. Start enjoying church like we enjoy a good family meal. It is this sustaining nutrition, and nurturing love, that makes possible living in the world without losing hope; a means of refreshing and refueling for the work of the Kingdom.
At a family dinner, you never really know what you'll get. Mom may try a new recipe that flops. Brother may read some of his poetry aloud, and it's so amazing that the heavens seem to open. Auntie may loose her teeth in her water glass and sister laughs so hard she falls off her chair. It's family. Let's not be so hard on ourselves. Let's not expect church to be something for which it was never designed.
I need to address my own dissatisfactions with church by first examining my own expectations and contributions to the problems I see. Am I asking the church/Church to be something or perform in some way that God never intended?
[As for questions about the need to separate from family for good reason, and what to do with abuse, that's another whole library of books. I don't have time to discuss it now, but I acknowledge that as a very real problem that needs honest address.
Along the same lines, there must be a contrast described between earthly families and Kingdom family. This is very important, especially for those who have been seriously wounded by their human family.]
Some of those words are too big for me. And I don't know who this author is, or that author is, and what he means by this condition or that condition described with big words that leave me wondering if I ever graduated high school. I would like to say this. If we can no longer afford to build our churches around great talkers who do our studying and thinking for us; then lets get the sheep involved. Church usually starts with worship, so lets get the "family" involved. Let the newcomers come in sit down,get comfortable, but lets get the faithful ones involved from the get go.
As a sports lover and coach, one of the hardest things to do is keep your head in the game when you know you are going to be riding the bench all day. And on a really great team everyone knows their role,their purpose and the importance of good execution in this. Now a starter, they know they are going to be practicing and perfecting their talent. One may not be gifted in playing an instrument, but can dance like no one else. One may not be a great singer, but has strong arms,and shoulders and can wave large flags in worship to God.Just as a singing team gets organized in their worship gifting,why not a dance team get organized in theirs. Honestly I think some want too, but on their own they are afraid to step out. How many of us don't raise our hands in worship because no one else does? Some tend to limit worship to singing only.(A worship team with no guitar player rejoices when a good guitar player comes along because it adds to their talent,and ability) There are many expressions of worship, and they are all for His good pleasure. I could be wrong but its all about Him in my mind.
Since God is looking down on us, do you ever wonder what He sees during worship. Just ask your worship leader what he sees during worship, that will give you a good idea. Now if flags were flying,dancers were leaping, and tambourines were banging(orderly with a good beat) and worship became a celebration of our talents and freedom.... that might look good even to the newcomers... who see us truly celebrate our King. I like that term "reckless abandon" And while church is not a party...it is a celebration of our awesome powerful,mighty God. And He is a reason to celebrate!
Aquila,
From your perspective, what prevents the faithful from getting involved in worship from the get-go? What action do you propose to change that?
I'm thinking that after all this discussion, I am closer to answering my own question. We all really know that "church" is the people of Christ. The trouble is that we can't seem to break free of the way we have come to speak of church as an event or a location (though these uses can be helpful, as opposed to, say, "that place where those of us who are in Christ meet in fellowship each week").
But maybe I could make a little bit of a dent in the traditional verbiage, and a little bit of an advance for the right analysis, in this conversation:
FRIEND: How was church today?
ME: Well, I was personally touched when Amy demonstrated mercy for Kenj by spending time sitting next to her and praying about her need. Then they went to lunch on Amy's dime, which met that other need--a shortfall in this month's cash. I also loved when dlb offered some words of insight (knowledge) with regard to the Scripture that had been read by anonymous. It's really helpful when I can be shaken from my own perspective and see things through someone else's lens. It shows me how rich the Bible is! It was great, too, when Kim delivered "a gift of her gift" by singing out during worship in a way that was creative and God-honoring. Then there was Aquila, who stoked all our fires by sharing how a friend had been recently healed after a group had gone to the friend's house to anoint and pray for the friend. And I was so pleased that Elizabeth had taken the time to study thoroughly the passage that she unfolded for all of us in the teaching; I really gained some new insights.
Now I know that this is a bit more long-winded than the simple, "It was good," that my interviewer was seeking, but one way or another I guess they won't ask me that question anymore!
I like that Jeff. I totally agree, church is not the place, or even the event, it is what happens between people. Church is the space in between one and another.
In musical terms, a song happens in between the notes. The relationship of one note to another; one beat to another; one instrument or voice to another, that creates the music. One pitch without another is merely sound. So too is church. It is in the interval, in the relationship, where church is both created and found. Christ is not only inside each believer, he is in the space between believers: among us; with us; by way of us.
In historical perspective, ekklesia (the NT Greek word usually translated to "church" in English) means, in the broadest sense: A gathering of citizens. It can be difficult for an English speaking audience to understand the nuance of the original language because we translate ekklesia in a purely religious sense.
It gets confusing, I think, for two reasons:
1) ekklesia is used to indicate both a gathering of individuals (temporary), and to a gathering of individuals who are (somewhat permanently) associated with a specific location. In other words, the named location, say TFH, stands for the group of people in the same way that the White House stands for the people of the United States.
2) In the NT world, there would typically be only one ekklesia in an area, for example, the church at Corinth. Now we have the church at the corner of Fresno and Barstow. There are so many "churches" that it's hard to conceptualize how there are so many and yet only one; and how the gathering refers to the people, not essentially the location.
Interestingly, ekklesia could have been used to refer to a chess club (if there was such a thing) or a guild of master craftsmen, or an Elks Club, but not typically a religious gathering. The cults and temples were referred to with exclusively religious terms that were specifically NOT adopted by the NT believers, nor Jesus himself.
All of that is preamble to this: The word church is so abstracted and distant from its original meaning, that it is almost completely irrelevant. In fact, it means the opposite of the original intention of ekklesia, which seems to have been a conscious separation from the NT contemporary religious culture. Church now indicates that very thing, the established religious culture.
When I wrote under point 2 above that there was only "one ekklesia in an area" I meant: only one ekklesia of Christ followers in an area (city).
In response to Kim's comments about the ignorance of those who's heart is to bless them with kind words of appreciation, I'm seriously wondering if I am intelligent enough to call TFH my home.
Wow. I'm very sorry if I offended. There is a difference between ignorance (lack of knowledge or information) and intelligence (the ability to gain knowledge). I was not questioning anyone's intelligence. I claim that I am ignorant of many things, but I am always working to gain knowledge. That shows intelligence. I believe this is why we are all here discussing these thoughts and issues - because we do want to gain knowledge. I love it when people come up and encourage one another in the gathering even if the semantics sometimes gets in the way for the recipient. Maybe that's their (my) problem, not the well-intentioned person's problem. Again, I mean no offense, but am here to grow and encourage others to grow. But when someone says to me, "Worship was good today. Thanks." I have to wonder how I am responsible for their "worship experience." They must think that I am, otherwise why would they say it like that? I am doing my part and they should be doing theirs. Therefore perhaps I should be able to walk up to anyone off-stage and say, "Worship was good today. Thanks." But I would guess if I did they would look at me like I was off my rocker. I just don't want to be elevated to the level of being responsible for someone else's worship. If they wanted to say, "Thanks for using your gifts today" as some have, I should be able to say the exact same thing back. And since they may be right then using their gift of encouragement, then I guess I could. Again, we are talking about semantics.
I will try to give grace to my beloved church family, and I hope and pray they will do the same for me as we are learning and growing together.
From my perspective..many things that take away our focus. Action proposed. Give focus back, get involved in a clear manner. Expand the definition of worship. I was visiting church two weeks ago and they had 2 young ladies up front who were painting pictures during worship. I asked someone what these two were doing and they replied worshipping. They also had people dancing, actually dressed and organized, others with flags, others with banners, tambourines, all of it organized and yet with great freedom and enthusiasm because they had a part that they felt was important, and they were doing it very well. Growing up worship was more find a seat, stand up, sit down, stand up, sit down and worship the Lord, but everyone except 4 people on the stage were doing the same thing. Give them options to express themselves, encourage and organize it. The fear of what other people will think is strong enough when we break protocol, and yet give me something that I do well, Im focused. Something else I liked, the music team had their back to the audience and the congregation as a whole were all facing the same way, almost as if we were all looking at the throne together, not us looking at the worship team and them looking at us..
Aquila,
You are right that there are many ways to worship. I have thought in the past about employing some of the techniques you described. If the whole congregation is to face forward, then I liked the idea of the worship team facing the same direction. I've also thought about facing the chairs away from the stage so the worship team is behind, so no focus is on the team at all, but there are some sound issues with that. I do think that someone painting in front of everyone else might still be entertainment, a show, but maybe not, maybe it's OK to use your gifts like that in view of everyone to bless the group with your talents. I guess it's the same with dancing and singing, etc. So...hmm...
I guess my question is are we looking for entertainment when we gather together, or is the focus upward in a collective usage of gifts and talents? If half of the church is busy using their gifts to bless the Lord and each other, does it promote passivity in the other half?
We all need to accept encouragement for what it is and not read anything else into it. Our Worship leaders are doing just what they are supposed to.... LEADING. And some of us are showing gratitude and thankfulness for that LEADING. I think
Romans 15: 1-7 says it all. We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. for even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me." For everything that is written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encourgement of the Scriptures we might have hope. May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
What about the band half turn to the right and the congregation half turn to the left so all are facing the Cross. Just a suggestion.
Kim, I like the idea of facing away from the worship team even more. Maybe a huge picture of Jesus on the wall they are facing is a good idea. I would be very interested to hear you and your husbands point of view on how the worship in your church looks as compared to what you hope for. My prayer is its everything you hope for and more. Keep on bloggin...Just like worship, its a team effort.
Aquila,
I take no issue with anything you said about creative ways to worship. We have, at times, employed many of the practices you describe. None are new ideas to us. We've been open to doing these and more. If you are not familiar with our meeting, or haven't been in on our discussions about this, you would not know how very important this issue has been to us. This is an ongoing (I'd dare say permanent) thread of discussion among us.
Here I go again, being a blog hog. Anyways...
dlb,
Very well said. Thank you.
What has been the result of all the discussion? Has change occurred?
I just want to say: Church was GREAT tonight!
Tongue-in-cheek aside, it felt good to be with my church family tonight. I liked it.
We had some testifying, anointing, laying on of hands, commissioning, playing, singing, teaching, meditating, praying, shouting, clapping, dancing, kneeling, resting, talking, hugging, thinking, exhorting, raising of hands, listening, resting, beseeching, gracing, and some plain ol' showing up.
My favorite moment was when Edith spontaneously led out in song, and she wasn't even on "stage."
Now THAT was church!
Thats awesome, it sounds like you attend a great church.
Kim,
I thought it was really cool that Chris echoed so many of the themes we've been discussing here; right down to the word study on ekklesia, and the music metaphor for the Christian life. Whoah! I know that he was working on that message long before we started writing about it. I loved it!
Amy-
Yeah. After he finished what he was preparing I had him read what you wrote about the music metaphor. I knew what he was working on and I thought it was so funny that you brought it up here. (He hadn't read your post yet before he finished.) Had you seen that Nooma video before? Isn't it great how God works, bringing things up in more than one person at a time, and bringing it all together in his time? That's one thing I love about God.
And church was great! Ha ha. I love how our gatherings have been going lately. Edith's boldness is awesome. I really appreciate what she has brought to the table the past couple of services, as well as what the rest of us brought. Moving in the Spirit together as a community is wonderful.
I saw the video at your Life Together group. That was at least a year ago, if not more. I hadn't thought about it again until last night. Even though I wasn't conscious to that memory, I'm sure the video helped form my thinking. I really can't claim anything as an absolutely novel thought. But how cool is it that? We really do have a sense of community, of shared life together, that is becoming even more unified (a little at a time).
For that very reason (this increasing unity), I think that exchanging ideas, like we do here, is really important. We actually need disagreement and meaty discussion in order to stay healthy. If we become a borg of group-think, we will be useless at best. Group-think is not unity, it is the abandonment of personal responsibility. It results in idol worship, and is one of the most dangerous of social phenomena. A little conflict is good for us. The intervals (the distance between notes) and the differences between people are part of the song. Without variety, we are just a solitary sound. Who wants that?
Back to the video: It reminds me of the way that Jesus used parable to teach about the kingdom. Like Jesus did, Rob Bell said, the kingdom of God is like this ... . I have a professor that says the gospels' parables are Jesus' invitation to "step into the story" and become an active participant in the kingdom.
What an awesome evening to be in the House of Our Lord. Saturday night June 7, 2008 will not soon be forgotten. Amy said it right on. Its been a long time since I left a church service feeling that good about Worship and about church. I look forward to more of that. THANK YOU JESUS.
Last week I noticed myself looking forward to our meeting even more than usual. I was so excited about all of the interaction going on here, and I felt especially connected to the church. In fact, I've had an opportunity to talk with people, like dlb, that I don't usually spend much time with (btw, I meant to greet you, but I didn't do it fast enough. You were gone before I made my full rounds). I think this blog has the potential to be very edifying to the church. I hope that more people join us.
Also, it could just be me, but I would really like it if more people would identify themselves on their comments. They wouldn't have to register or disclose more information than they want, maybe just first names.
I need for church to be a safe place. If I'm worried that I've offended someone (because they've expressed hurt feelings here), I will come to church wondering who I need to reconcile with. Unless he or she comes to me, I have no way to make things right (or try to anyway). If feelings do get hurt, face to face (or at least on the phone) is probably a better way to work it out. Emotional content is too hard to get right in this setting.
I'm only speaking for me here. Maybe others feel safer with anonymity. I just wonder if it builds community or walls when we talk at each other (or past each other) rather than with each other. I don't know if we will grow closer in our friendships if this blog is merely a list of impersonal musings. I do tend to feel more connected with people when we engage in intense discussions together. If I don't know who I am talking with, that's not going to translate as well to my real world relationships.
Thanks for your thoughtful comments Amy. You often say what I feel as well.
I too see this as an opportunity to grow together as a body and fear possible wedges being driven between us by misunderstandings and/or offenses. I would really hope that if I offend someone here that they would feel free to come and talk to me about it in love so it can be dealt with in a Biblical manner. I love my church family like my biological family and would not want to hurt relationships if I accidentally put my foot in my mouth. (And yes, I have a constant striving for tact. It doesn't come easy for me.) It's not always easy to fully understand what someone is trying to convey here because we don't have the advantage of body language, vocal fluctuation, etc. to feel where a person is coming from. Words alone can bring certain connotations and are easy to misinterpret without human presence. So, please give each other (and me) the benefit of the doubt, and clarify, ask questions, email or call or whatever, before allowing offense to take hold. Let us first love each other as Christ has loved us.
OK. It's late and I'm rambling on. Sorry...
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