In response to the last post and Chris' message last weekend on faith, an astute commenter suggested that commitment is a key piece of faith. This commenter also suggested that as long as we are allowing for the possible closure of TFH when the lease expires next spring, we may not be acting in commitment or faith. Allow me to respond in a way that won't provide an "answer," but will keep us thinking.
First, I would say that if we were allowing for that possible closure as a sort of hedge against our failed efforts in the meantime, the commenter would be 100 percent right in challenging us to think otherwise. I do not think this is what is happening. Part of what the Council is doing by laying this on the table so far ahead of time (as opposed to this time next year) is allowing for vision and faith to arise among us as we seek the Lord—long before our backs are against the wall on the lease. Conversely, if it became clear through our seeking Him that what we are supposed to do is close TFH, then we would not be acting in faith to keep it open, but rather acting in stubbornness (aka, resolute sin). The Council is not really interested in closing TFH, but much more than that the Council is not at all interested in grieving the Lord.
Now let's consider this from another angle, some of which support the comments submitted and some of which do not.
Faith in Scripture shows itself in at least three avenues. We should have faith that God will:
- do what He wills in our individual lives, in societies, and in social institutions
- do for us what we cannot do for ourselves (as with the woman with the issue of blood)
- do what He reveals to us as His specific purpose (as Paul was sometimes led in his journeys)
Let's start at the end. Has God revealed to us that His purpose is to stay open long beyond any future any of us can see?
If so, then we must have this faith, including during times when we could in no way help ourselves (in an extreme financial shortage, for instance).
But if He has given us no such revelation, then we must defer to the first (and universal) avenue of faith—that God will do what He wills, and that He knows far better than we do why He is doing what He is doing. In our case, that may mean having faith that closing TFH would be OK, because He would work out His greater will through such a closure.
Right now, we have no such revelation. Therefore, we are not necessarily demonstrating a lack of faith by saying that God may intend to close the place (or at least end the Saturday night gatherings). Rather, we are simply observing the facts that fall in front of us and using our God-given discernment and wisdom to make the best possible decisions.
And yet such revelation may still come.
We can ask for it, certainly. But I also would suggest that we can only ask for it if we are willing to act on the revelation He gives us, even if that revelation is to close.
I hope this does not all sound like a bunch of careful human reasoning. God wants our hearts, and there are so many hearts on the line here. My own heart? I love teaching the people of TFH. I love interacting with you all about our God, His love, and His Word. I love hearing the stories of how He is transforming your minds to live for Him. But I cannot love any of these more than I love doing what God tells me to do. That's why this would be so much easier for us all if we had a plain sheet of instructions telling us what to do. We don't. So guess what we're left with? Acting in faith. :)
God Keeps Leading
11 years ago
14 comments:
I think thats why I blog. I work out some of my thoughts here as I try to make sense of things. I also blog because it is my voice at TFH.
I hope no one ever interprets my blogging as a personal questioning of their faith, character, or thought processes. Its just me asking questions because I dont have the answers, and I look for them wherever it makes sense. I have more questions about this but for now I just wanted to say this...and get my thoughts together.
That's a big reason why I blog too. All Christians should be engaging in theological conversations with other believers. We must talk with each other about God, and about how to live like we believe God's word.
I find that my own thoughts and beliefs are sometimes half-baked, but I don't realize that until I try to put them into words. Putting things "out there" allows me to learn from others.
Keep up the good reflection. I learn a lot from you (whoever you are ;)
I had to make sure I wasn't taking this stand because of my own personal fears that TFH might close. The thought of it makes me sad, but not fearful.
My first thought is this. Is it a deficiency that we don't know at this stage of the game what God wants for TFH?
My second thought is if we dont have revelation, what do we go forward on. My guess would be God's character. It strikes me as odd that He would start something, bless it, build it up, to let it fizzle and die. Why He would bless us with the people we have, our very qualified and gifted pastors, leaders, people with great wisdom and intelligence, and knowledge of God. The close relationships God has built in our body. It just doesn't add up that He would bring all this together to disband it.
Someone asked me the question why have the numbers gone down for the last few years? Natural thinking might say failed efforts, faith might say fruitful pruning. I see no failed efforts, just good healthy pruning. Their response was "I guess you could look at it that way." Why not look at these things through eyes of faith? Whatever is good, pure, right, think on these things. Thats affirming our faith, and His character.
This brings up the question of God's sovereignty. He is sovereign, but I think even in His sovereignty we as His people can not forget our responsibility, and part of that is believing Him for great things especially when our back is against the wall. He has made it a habit in my life to put my back against the wall, and then to rescue me from that position. Every time He does this he reaffirms His character, strengthens my faith, and gives me further revelation that I am on the right track.
Abraham hoped against all hope even though he was dead in his body and so was Sarah. It said He praised God for the promise given before Isaac was ever conceived. God has promised that His presence He will never take from TFH.Could it be the only thing we need besides His presence to go on is more of His presence?
to anonymous,
This is not about commenting on the thread presented. You mention that you blog. Are you referring to your comments on other blogs or do you have your own site? Would love to read more of what your write.
Funny thing about faith. There is no limit to it. It can go as far as I will let it. Its interesting that almost everything we will accomplish for the Kingdom of God will require faith.
There is no lack of faith. Just misguided faith. I am going to find what I trust and believe in, and put my faith in it. I can put my faith in the tv that says I am headed for financial ruin with this economy, or I can put my faith in God's promise that says "I shall supply all your needs according to My riches in glory." In either case I dont have the answer yet, but I still have to choose one and live by it. Faith dictates my choices, actions, and most important my attitude. If I say I dont know...then how do I act on that, what choices do I make, and what kind of attitude do I have if im "in limbo". If we seek Him first He has promised to give us the desires of our hearts. The same desires He put there. Do we desire to stay up and running as a body of believers? Now if I reason my way out of the truth of that verse...somehow exclude it from not being true in this particular case...then I now excuse my faith from being activated in that promise from God.
If faith is the substance of things hoped for but not seen, what am I hoping for? And here is the problem with living in the practical too much. The practical is what I see. It is what is happening around me right now. And to not get caught off guard or look foolish, I sometimes put my faith in the practical, often when others are watching.
I have been asking God for vision, specifically for TFH. This morning I read Isaiah 49. I can put my faith in the fact that it is mere coincidence I read that with no spiritual implication involved, or I can put my faith in the fact that He is giving me vision and answering my prayer. Now If I believe I am getting vision from God and I act on it, and I am wrong then I am going to look pretty foolish in the end. The only thing worse than that would be if God was giving me vision, and I chose to put my faith in the thought that it was coincidence; and did nothing about it.
I think we're putting ourselves on a bit of dangerous ground here, pitting desires against desires.
Do people who think that God has great plans in store for those who would depart from TFH if TFH closed lack faith or possess it? Wouldn't their faith be similar to those who trust that God will supply their family's needs if Dad really does die of this illness?
I'm confident we can say that no one "desires" for TFH to close. But the closure of a church would be no more devastating to God's kingdom than the death of an especially godly person or the establishment of an ungodly ruler (who is put there by God, Scripture tells us). Indeed, I am sure that in God's full landscape, sometimes one thing has to get out of the way in order for a new thing to arise.
Anonymous has done a beautiful job of laying his/her heart on the line. But we must be walk cautiously, lest we suggest those who "really want it" possess faith, while those who "don't" lack faith.
My apologies...I did not realize I was pitting desires against each other....or faith against faith.. I will be more careful next time
"He has made it a habit in my life to put my back against the wall, and then to rescue me from that position."
Is this what God is like? If an earthly father did this to his child, I would call him abusive. This kind of parenting contributes to mental illness.
Is this what God does to us? I wonder about it because we talk a lot about "sovereignty" and this kind of scenario is implied.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
I have a friend who was quite successful in banking. God called him to Belize to be a missionary. Or consider the Israelites when they were trapped at the red sea with pharoah's army breathing down their necks. How about when God told Abraham to go sacrifice Isaac his only son, only to call it off at the last moment.
Is it good parenting if you have 5 children, and you tell them not to eat the cookies in the cookie jar. One of them does so you punish all of them for the actions of one? Yet you and I are under the curse of sin because of Adam.
"I would call him abusive" I think alot of people would call God abusive, in todays society it is not surprising. "How can a loving God".....how many times have you heard a sentence started with that?
His ways are not our ways...and our smartest thinking is foolishness to Him... but yes, if you take a long hard look, I think one could interpret alot of abuse directed from God to His children, and yet He calls Himself love.
Great biblical examples, anonymous. Yep, sovereignty is no easy concept--probably because it tears us from our flesh and gives all control to God. My heart sometimes aches at what I see happen in His universe, but my mind always brings me back to realizing that the more I suggest He does not control, the more I would have to concede that He is not the all-powerful God. And then I would have grave concerns about my ability to pronounce which things He does and does not preside over. :)
"How can a loving God...?" is a very valid question. We even find it in scripture. Everybody has to face this question eventually.
I agree that we often misunderstand the nature of God and whether or not God's actions are loving. Frankly, we are morons compared to God.
Is God sovereign? I don't know that anyone argues against the sovereignty of God. God is sovereign; But what does that mean?
As we talk about TFH and the problems we are facing right now, I don't see any of them as really that significant. They are, in the long view, mere inconveniences. Please don't misunderstand me, there are important matters to work out that can have an effect on the faith and life of TFH members. It is important to deal responsibly with what we are given.
"I would have grave concerns about my ability to pronounce which things He does and does not preside over."
Do you go so far as to say that God created evil? Or, would you say that there is no real evil, but only things that humans perceive as evil?
I realize that I am begging the question, but I'm not trying to be cute.
There are some who would go so far as to say that since God created everything. Therefore, God must have created every problem and pain in our lives. This means that God willfully does to us the things that we would call evil. They are actually the good plan of God, and are therefore not evil but holy.
I believe that there is real evil in the world. There is evil that no person should know of, and yet even small children are made to suffer it. I cannot, today, say that the presence and action of evil in the world represents the will of God on earth. That is, God chooses not to exert power over some things, and things happen in our lives that God are not God's will.
I will not name specific evils, but we all know that they exist, and I am not willing to say that hideous abuses against the helpless represent God's good pleasure for us.
Thought this thread was dead. Sorry.
Amy, I would agree that we cannot possibly deny real evil, not when God said through Amos, "Hate evil, and love good" (5:15).
This chapter is also helpful in defining evil. It is those actions, from the dreadful you have mentioned to the actions we might call incidental, that render injustice to those who cannot defend themselves, those actions that conspire against and deprive the poor and the weak.
Did God create evil? I cannot go that far. But I would certainly go so far as to say He has employed evil unto His purposes, e.g., the plague of death of all Egypt's firstborn. At least, we would call this evil if we saw it happen in our midst; maybe reading it so far back in history alleviates this stark assessment for us now--right or wrong.
Maybe we can say it this way: Satan introduced evil into the world. He established the rules of earth. Now God sometimes plays by those rules to fight back against the purposes of Satan. (I'm not saying I'm altogether comfortable with that position; it's a way of trying to put my moron's brain around God's actions.)
Brad and I have been talking the last couple of days of "the problem with evil". This is where we all get stuck. Even the great theological authors. No answers. We are left with believing God loves us and faith. Faith is not the same as belief. Faith truly deals with what we don't know; not giving assenting belief to statements. I don't know if I said this well. My heart is full of pain today for the little one who died. How do we deal with the evil of that? (Please understand I am not speaking of the way she died...just that this precious little one suffered and died). These parents and the rest of her family are aching deeply. Evil is around us. Where did it come from? Do we overcome it or learn to live with it around us? Will there ever be answers to these questions? Faith.
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