Let me tell you some words I love to hear: "I can't afford it."
One of the saddest things I see/hear/overhear is when people spend beyond their means. Of course, very difficult financial situations arise from loss of work, long-term illness, and the like. In such situations, this fellowship, for one, is ready to help those we know well. That's what Christ's compassion and body-work calls us to do.
But I am speaking more of those who cannot contain their spending.
I have found that this is not so much a matter of financial ignorance or impulsive response to seeing something that's "cool." Instead, people buy because they think they must have what someone else has, or what their family expects, or what they had planned to have when they reached such-and-such age. And what a pain this is.
You may wonder what a pastor is doing running down this path. First, nearly all of us know that one of the two most contentious matters in marriage is money. Couples don't talk openly about money, and they wind up angered at one another over it. For a guy who is supposed "to protect and serve" (which is the right order, by the way, for those of you who were with us at family camp), protecting marriages can be about helping couples figure out their financial troubles--I know, strangely practical. More than that, however, Jesus ran down this path, primarily because it is a matter of trust. Do we trust Him enough to be our provider? Do we place our identity in Him rather than the clothes we wear, the vacations we take, the birthday dinners we eat?
In other words, money is a big deal.
For those of you who are working through this stuff, let me recommend both the folks at Crown Ministries and Dave Ramsey. They come at it from a Christian perspective, trying to move us toward God's priorities. Always their number one lesson is don't take on debt (other than a rightly priced house for your income)--so if this is a weak spot for you, just know that they will be moving you in this direction right away.
The title of this post might on the surface seem like a big duh. It is that, for sure, in more ways than one. If we buy material things in this life, we must--sooner or later--pay for them. Don't be fooled in this regard. But more significantly, whatever ill philosophies we buy into, we will pay for as well--with severe consequences sometimes. Don't be fooled here either. Be very careful what you buy--especially a line that says, "You've got to have it!" For that line, there is this one: "I can't afford it." See why I love those words? They are a stand against temptation.
God Keeps Leading
12 years ago
45 comments:
When it comes to finances, I see a really bigger problem when it comes to resposibility (or lack of responsibility) It seems as though in todays society......if I get into financial trouble....its not my fault. Its the commercial, its the finance company, its this its that.......come on and take some personal resposibility for your own misjudgement and spending and yes YOU will pay for it with percentages or late fees. Its just not worth it. This will affect not only your bank account, but your marriage too and if you dont pay, that will affect your credit and future buying power. Sometimes just simple common sense that God gave you will save you from spending or wanting that coveted item. Also, always talk to your spouse about everything financial. All I am saying is take personal resposibility in what you get yourself into and ask God for help when you feel yourself slipping. I listen to Crown Ministries quite a bit and they can really help.
I agree, Jeff. Carrying consumer debt, even relatively low amounts, is crummy. Having a lot of debt can hold us back from serving, giving, and having peace. It is preferable, in many situations, to avoid it altogether.
I would add, however, that staying out of debt isn't always a "just say no" situation. In our little group we have as much variation in the psychological and intellectual constitution of our members as in the physical and material. Sometimes individuals acquire unmanageable debt because they are, quite literally, functionally disabled in this arena.
Being in a similar situation myself, I know that there can be a great deal of shame and self-hatred connected to this. Unfortunately, for men and women with learning disabilities or mental disorders, nobody can see the disability. All they see is the "failure" to meet expectations.
This doesn't mean that we don't say what's true. It doesn't mean that everyone who struggles has a disability (sorry folks). It also doesn't mean that people with disabilities aren't held responsible for their choices (we are the ones who punish ourselves most anyway). But having one's financial house out of order does not necessarily indicate disobedience or negligence. One may have done the very best, most obedient, job possible given a unique set of challenges.
I think you just bumped into one of my bruises.
I do probably mostly agree with what Amy has said, and those of you who know me well know that I am no financial genius, but it seems to me that once a person begins to understand what their particular disabilities are, that it is up to them to find the help that they need to overcome them. I also realize that not all disabilities are overcome-able. But I think that when it comes to being good stewards of ourselves and what God has given to us, making the statement that "I am just not wired in such a way that allows me to do this" means that we need to reach out into our community so that those who are capable can help us. Just so everyone knows, I'm talking about myself. I hate money. The very fact that I need it to survive bugs the heck out of me. But we live in a society that works this way. That in and of itself could open up a whole can of worms. I'd let it, but I can't afford to.
crispy,
I really appreciate your probably mostly agreement :)
I probably mostly agree with you too that struggles like these are the very things we can support each other in. I don't mean that we bail each other out as a long term solution, but that we all bring different gifts and tools to the proverbial table. Sometimes, we need "outside" help because neither spouse is any good with numbers or money.
Sometimes outside help comes in the form of books, videos, or programs. Sometimes those aren't enough and we need flesh and blood help (more likely to be helpful for learning disabled).
Hopefully I'm communicating well enough that this is not about abdicating responsibility. I'm not throwing my hands in the air and saying, whatever. I just think it's really hard to communicate how financial "failure" can happen to people who are being as diligent and responsible as possible (given their limitations).
Like I said, this is a really touchy spot for me because I've battled it all my life. I've gotten the message loud and clear that I'm defective, that I don't try hard enough.
I really don't think Jeff meant to open this up, but I don't know.
With people there are limitations, but with God there are no limitations and with God all things are possible. Mt 19:26.
Chris and Amy,
I just want to encourage you and say that I see two very intelligent, God serving, God Loving Christ_ins in my church family at The Fathers House. Peace and Love be with you always.
Thanks, dlb. I know I'm being defensive. Lessons on "responsibility" sound like a personal indictment, even when clearly not intended as such. I realize that I've gone a little "out there" on this one.
I've mentioned this before. I still have painful feelings related to a personal history of perceived failure, despite being hard working and conscientious. But, unless God changes the way my brain functions, I will always have to work harder than most of my peers (just to keep up) and will still fail to meet some basic expectations (poor time management, planning, organization, memory). It's a good thing I have a lot of energy! I still manage to get a lot done, even with half my brain tied behind my back (I'm not really sure what that is supposed to mean, but I'm just gonna go with it).
It's just hard, sometimes, to hear over and over again that mental disorders and learning disabilities are a worn-out excuse or a cop-out or unfounded nonsense. I do hear these things, mostly from people who have no personal experience, or expert knowledge of them. They just don't get it.
These disorders aren't just bad habits, poor discipline, bad attitudes, or apathy (although these are often symptoms, they are not the cause). They are literally physiological differences between individual human bodies. Other disabilities are not questioned in the same way. A person with abnormally short legs has obvious problems. A person with abnormally small brain structures (who appears to have average or above intelligence) isn't recognized as someone with a disability, but a character flaw; a lack of discipline; a rebellious attitude; a victim mentality; a sense of entitlement; or a poor work ethic.
It's in this area, the pain and defensiveness about my own struggle, that God is both using me (to advocate for and help others in a similar boat), and healing me (showing me my worth in him, not in the praise of men). There's still a lot of ground to cover, so I guess I'll get to walkin'.
Talk about getting far afield. Sorry about the detour. Commence with the financial guidance!
Well, friends, what a path we've come down in just a few comments' time!
I really was trying to address this as a spiritual issue. The problem as I see it is not mathematical incapability (or disability) or the simple inability to say no. Nor am I out of the loop with regard to the economy and/or personal extenuating circumstances, both of which can suddenly and ruthlessly kick the butt of even the most diligent financial managers.
But I do see big contributing problems, both of which I think have roots in The Fall (and you know I don't mean the season).
First is the allurement of the fashionable. Here I think about going back to Ron Sider's classic words, "If the earth is the Lord's and everything in it, the question is not how much of my money should I give to God, but how much of the Lord's money should I keep for myself?" Obviously, as crispy stated, we don't have many options to money, but we do have the option to spend with God's priorities in mind. I think this is part of the reason green technology fascinates and excites me so much; I love to see us moving toward wiser, more creation-defending choices. In this case, we may find ourselves spending more, not less (e.g., buying a hybrid), in order to do the right long-term thing. From all that I have seen of His-story, I just have to believe that God favors the long term, and when He gets us thinking that way, He is getting us to think beyond ourselves--imagine that!
Second is the problem of comparing ourselves with others. This is the case not only in big things but right down to the small things. Rite-Aid's Thrifty ice cream still wins the cheap-but-good prize. And I think we can help each other here by not always meeting at Starbuck's (notice the "buck" part in the name) when we go to sit down with a friend, with the expectation that we'll drink down a multi-buck latte, especially if we know that friend is strapped. There is plenty of room in God's grace for treats, and every household will be a little bit different, but my original thought remains: I like hearing people say that have chosen to hold back, especially if I gather that this means they are seeing in the long-term with God's eyes.
I have seen a lot of seemingly ill financial choices in all the "places where I've done time." I have seen men (and it is usually the men, by the way, who go after the big ticket items that result in real trouble) who snatch up worthless things without really wrestling over it. But know this: this particular post was not inspired by those troubled scenarios. It was inspired by the other side, by some people I have heard recently say, "I can't afford that right now." They inspired me.
FINALLY, I am very much considering making this the topic of my next Saturday night message on August 16, something like, "Our Relationship with Money," in keeping with our year's theme. If I do this, what are some things that you might suggest that I include in that teaching--Scriptures that have spoken to you, lessons that have been painful (or great), helpful guidelines, giving and generosity, etc.?
I do apologize. I knew you weren't going down this path, Jeff. I get defensive one this.
The funny thing is, I'm not all that bad with money. I actually don't like to spend much. I prefer to get my clothes, furniture, sports equipment, housewares, etc., second hand (and most often do). I really hate buying coffee out (Starbucks or otherwise) and rarely do. We almost never eat out.
"I can't afford it" is my normative response. This can be a problem too. I was raised with a savings mentality. There was a lot of fear behind that, excessive worry about tomorrow, and idolization of the eventual joys of retirement. I think John Piper did an awesome job speaking to that issue the other night. He sometimes goes over my head, but I really enjoyed that last one.
Again, forgive my derailing of the conversation. I knew that was where you were aiming. Sorry.
No trouble. :)
Jeff,
This is one of my favorite topics. One of the awesome things that happened to Ken and I was going to a Crown financial workshop when I had already made the decision and bought Suze Ormans book the 9 steps to financial freedom. I knew our money was out of control and Ken and I both had debt issues. Most of our own making if not all. It is very easy to not take responsibility for stuff like a medical emergency, getting hit by a car, etc., but most of the time it's simply bad planning as we learned in the workshop. Suze stated in her book that the average american overspends by 1,000 a month. We laughed hysterically over that one until we added it up. $1200 was the total. Not so funny now. Not only that, Crown really allowed us to look at our value system. How we value our money and belongings. What we both walked out of there asking ourselves that day was why didn't we learn this as teenagers before someone let us loose with a paycheck? It's often hard particularly when you are raised in an atmosphere that what you have is what you are worth as a person. An interesting concept when what anyone has belongs to God anyway truly making us all equals. There has often been struggles in my marriage though because maybe we didn't buy that big screen tv because we had a perfectly good operating tv, or we don't live in the right part of town and have that big beautiful home that our friends have. Taking responsibility for our money has been one of the hardest yet best things that have happened to us, and when that day arrives that we hit financial freedom, I can't wait to see what that looks like in terms of what we will then do to help others.
For those of you that are functionally disabled, or just simply have never even explored what this looks like, crown has many financial counselors that will help you get where you need to be right here in the area. There should never be shame or self hatred in this area as most of us were never given the tools that we need to do this right whether we are challenged in this area or not. Again fortunately there is help for you. God has provided a wonderful blueprint for how to handle your money in the bible. He thought is was so important (and it is) it was mentioned over 400 times.
Look at the birds of the air, they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Matthew 6:26
No matter how much or how little you have, God will take care of you. Isn't that great?
By the way Suze Orman will be the keynote speaker at the womens conference this year and I'm looking forward to meeting her. I hope some of you can join me.
Jeff, I hope you do this one in church as relationship with money is definitely something extremely important to everyone. Another of my favorites is "where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matthew 14:21
There are 4 attitudes that foster debt. A. Ignorance- lack of financial training Proverbs 22:3, B. Indulgence- unrestrained gratification Proverbs 13:25 C. Imprudence- poor planning Proverbs 16:3 D. Isolation- lack of communication Proverbs 28:13.
The last thing that I learned through crown was this. Where we choose to store our treasure depends on where we think our home is.
Oh, and by the way. Our air conditioner needs to be replaced and guess what? We can't afford it!
I really try to discipline myself to use the words "need" and "want" responsibly.
It's very rare that the word "need" is appropriately used in reference consumer goods.
I do use "need" a lot with my kids: "I need you to pick up your room." I don't know what that has to do with money management and marriage, but it is curious to me. Do I "need" that or "want" that. I do try not to say "you need to..." because that is too easily disputed.
Funny, bethm, we were posting at the same time. Great thoughts. I really appreciate your honesty, and it's cool to hear how God has worked in your life so that money doesn't rule over you.
Bethm,
Way to go....Excellent post! I wish I could write like that.
God has blessed you richly. Peace and Love to you and yours always.
Honestly, I have been very leery of Crown Ministries because of the type of churches that I see offering (pushing) their services. I see it in the big conservative seeker friendly mega churches that I ran away from. But from the things Beth said, I would be willing to give that organization another look. I do know I am determined to get my finances in order, whether through Crown, or with a friend to hold us accountable, or by some other means.
For Kim, I would say that Crown is pretty down-to-earth. The many times I have listened to their radio program, I have found them to be very understanding that most folks won't reach some of the higher levels that they address, and they are happy and compassionate to start with you right where you are.
For all and (please!) with no disparagement to Beth, I know this will test the question of where truth comes from, but I would feel remiss in not saying this here lest you get too far down a path before being caught by surprise. I have been hesitant through the years to recommend Stephen Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People because of his active Mormon faith. Likewise, I have held back from recommending Suze Orman's materials (though they look as good as some of the other stuff out there) because she is open about her lesbianism. This is not so much a don't-support-that-lifestyle-with-your-consumer-dollars sort of thing. Rather, I just believe that the fabric of one's life and one's philosophies are too woven together to separate, even when there is no ill intent or blatant agenda. Thus, I am hesitant to draw from the philosophies of those whose life choices are not biblical, especially when I know there are other options--those from a more careful and intentional biblical perspective--out there. You may be more free than I am in this area (and maybe my pastoral role does require me to be more cautious); after all, Suze doesn't write about sexuality that I know of--only personal financial management. But I hope you can see why I would offer Crown, Ron Blue, and Dave Ramsey first.
read to the bottom please. This is only my opinion and does not diminish my respect for anyone.
I don't take serious issue with the practical advice in any of these programs. They are all based in the same economic theory and the perceived needs of those in contemporary American culture.
The Christian versions call theirs biblically based because they reference Bible verses, employ prayer as a valid aspect of financial management, and include the notion of tithing (a contemporary practice, not thoroughly biblical in the way we practice it), and teach a Godward motivation for financial responsibility. But the theoretical underpinning (i.e., how economics and finance function) of both types of programs come out of the same source, a body of knowledge generated in the public arena.
I'm often annoyed with this approach from the Christian sector. I think we cheapen the Gospel when we use it like a label; slap a Bible verse on a budget worksheet or compound interest chart. I have read through the online version of the Crown Ministries program and had to talk myself down from writing the whole program off because the Bible verses were not, in my opinion, speaking to the topic being taught. I found the misappropriation of scripture offensive.
However, I do think that Christian programs can be very helpful to individuals who do not understand why financial responsibility is important to discipleship. Furthermore, so-called secular resources tend to focus on storing up treasure on earth. This is most certainly in opposition to the Gospel. In other words, the Christian programs are only Biblical in that they explicitly teach the proper motivation for financial responsibility, not that their practical advice differs from others in it's source: "man's" wisdom.
Preferring one type over another is on more stable ground based on that aspect (i.e., espousing Godward motive; storing up treasure in Heaven) than the sexual behavior of the person teaching it; which seems completely irrelevant, given our lack of information about all the persons who contribute to a common body of wisdom informing both kinds of program. Furthermore, we have all benefited from the knowledge and God given wisdom of those who live all sorts of lives, with all sorts of personal demons.
Truth is truth and it only has one source.
Monday thru Thursday while driving home from work (about 45 minutes)I get to listen to Crown Ministries on the radio (probably the same show that Jeff listens to). I do not know Ms. Orman. I found that just listening to Crown Ministries on the radio has made me at least look at our own family finance situation and I compare to what Crown Ministries had to say thats similar. I like what they have been saying so far and I would endorse them.
I told you I was testing the question of where truth comes from. We might say that the gift is truth but the package is not. Some packaging is too risky to open in order to get to the same truth we can get to through another package. Or, put another way, while it is true that hospitality is a good thing, you would not readily allow your children (or maybe yourself) to enter every place you are invited. Since I can't always test other people's full intent, maybe it is best to steer clear when there exists an equal option through a person whose character points to Christ.
In this specific case, I would say that while it the method might be the same in secular vs. Christian programs, the motivation is not. For instance, the secular program might encourage extravagance for one's self, while the Christian program should encourage extravagance for the needy. As those who deal in matters of the heart and soul, I think the motivation is of equal or greater importance than the method. Can I learn from the methodology of a secular financial expert? Of course. But for regular input, I would rely on those whose eternal values are the same as mine.
I agree with you Jeff, but how does one actually know if the others values are the same as yours? and that they are working towards the same goal or something else? Thats where I compare to what they are saying and what my situation may be. While at work I get to listen to a lot of different preachers on Christian radio and sometimes I'll hear two different interpretations of the same message and again I will compare them.........sometimes I'll just turn it off when the preacher is way out of line. Those kinds of messages make for good conversation with my wife when I bring up the two interpretations at dinner.
I think using discernment in everything is key. I do agree that "truth is truth and it only has one source" and I allow myself to listen to secular music and watch secular movies for that very reason, but when my discernment tells me that the truth that may be found in certain things is not worth wading through other sinful things, then I must walk away and trust that God can get me to understand that truth by some other means. And while we are all sinners, there are certain life choices some make, that I would call blatantly walking in sin, that perhaps should cause us to reconsider when thinking of putting ourselves under that person's counsel. That doesn't mean I would not be friends with and love that very same person.
Hey, you started it :) I totally agree with the underlying motive piece. It's easy to get caught up in the "storing up on earth" mentality. However this does not seem to be the case for bethm. Apparently, this secular resource was a great blessing to her family, and contributed to their journey towards righteousness. I am often blessed by the way she expresses her faith.
I think my reaction was more about attributing the unrighteous aspect of Ms. Orman's materials to a specific area of her behavior, rather than that she is simply not a citizen of the Kingdom (assuming that she's not--only God knows her heart and her journey). We don't expect citizens of another kingdom to abide by the law in ours. Do we?
I use non-Christian resources a lot. I tend to find so much good, biblically consistent stuff out there and am blessed in my faith through it. This is often true with secular music as well as books.
My thought is, it's either good for me or it's not. And I'm with dlb that I disagree with a lot of Christian teaching. I have to be discerning in both arenas, so why do we consider the secular more dangerous? There is some very un-biblical stuff in our Christian bookstores.
For the record, I'm not arguing against Crown or any other good financial program. I think they're really good resources for many people.
I do find it interesting that I am so irritable on this thread. It's kinda getting my goat. Money really can bring out some defensive stuff. Funny thing is, Dave and I don't really fight about money (or the other biggie) much. We disagree about it; We approach it differently; but we save our perennial fights for our own special brew of mutual infantilism.
You're right. We do need to use discernment with Christian things as well as secular. That's very true. And whether or not a person is obviously "a citizen of the kingdom" or not, I have to use discernment when placing myself under their counsel. Sometimes the outward lifestyle is one way to see into their heart and motives, sometimes not. Again, I have to use discernment with everyone.
Hey Amy, I saw you posted at the same time last night and had a little laugh. Obviously the time of day busy moms get some time to themselves. The experience that Ken and I had with Crown was very positive. The information was very practical, inexpensive (workshop was $20) and we received follow up phone calls from the counselors to help us afterward. I would imagine that the reason churches refer to Crown so much is that christians can really identify with WHY they need to keep their money in order and not just to keep the creditors from calling. So often good people get in trouble with money, not because they are bad or irresponsible, it's simply bad planning. I'm sure the referrals are a response to a need pastors find in their members who get into trouble and turn to their church for help. Since there are so many ripoffs on tv and in the newspapers it doesn't surprise me to put their trust in an organization who only want you to become financially healthy.
Jeff, I totally get what you are saying about Suze and I have to admit I was not aware of her sexual orientation. I am often very ignorant about that kind of stuff although I know I should pay more attention to it. I have not spent a ton of time reading her stuff other than the book I mentioned prior to going to crown. Oh, and I watched her on Oprah once. She did have some practical suggestions to formulating a spending plan that was not included in Crowns materials that I found helpful. Other than that I have stuck to Crowns stuff. I use their online Money management program that is attached to my financial accounts, I use their free money map to help me keep sight of my goals, and I read their books to encourage me in my journey which by the way is far from over. Suze does not address any of the biblical perspectives that I know of so she does come short in that area. I simply liked some of her practical suggestions that I applied with what I learned from Crown. You are exactly right that we need to have discernment from where we get our help from. I will spend some time thinking on this one, although I'd like to believe I can take what I need from someone and leave what I don't need. I would also like to say that I don't want to see such an important topic clouded by Suze vs Crown. I believe with everything I know that our financial relationships should be one of the top priorities of our lives. Amy, I have to admit to being curious about what your issues are with some of the verses that are used in Crowns teachings. Can you give me a little more detail? Kim, even if you did nothing more that sign up for the free money map program and download the guidelines for a spending plan it will change your finances considerably.
dlb, thank you for being so sweet. Honestly the reason I am so open about the state of my finances is because I hope to never see someone else make the same mistakes I have. It will still be several years before our bad debt is fully resolved and I give a lot of credit to Crown for getting us on the right path.
Beth,
The thing about the verses is about my own tendency to over-think, evaluate, and dissect. I do not think that Crown misrepresents good stewardship or Christian ethics. The teaching is solid, valid, and biblically aligned.
I do, however, think some of the verses (like the one's to memorize on the Money Map curriculum) are used in a surfacey way. However, if they encourage people to trust God more in the area of their finances, I'm all for it.
It's just that I deconstruct about everything I can get my brain into. I'm a nit-picking hair-splitting naysayer. The exercise of it is often where the best learning happens for me. It's almost like I don't really know something until I talk it comes out of my mouth, swirls around the room, and goes back into my ears. It can be an embarrassing way to learn at times, and it hasn't helped my popularity ratings much.
When it comes to the issues of finances I have in the back of my mind the principle that to live a "simple life" is what a radical Christian is to do. I don't know why I have this belief---I guess being a missionary for years, growing up being "discipled" you could say through Keith Green's writings, then YWAM influenced me mainly. Now I really don't know exactly what a "simple life" looks like! I just know that's what I expect of myself. It seems though that there's so much we need in this American culture, just to live here. It's a daily choice to decide what is "neccessary'" and what I "really need" and what is just something extra that is fine to spend on, or give to another person. I am thankful for the freedom God gives in this area, to be wise and responsible in our decisions and as always to include Him in everything.
I've found the Scriptures in 2 Corinthians 9:6-12 excellent. It is encouraging to remember that as we give to others God will provide for us and enable us to keep giving.
Wow, you all are thinkin' good (thinkin' being used here as an adjective as much as a noun, just for fun)!
To dlb, indeed it can be more than a little difficult to know everyone's values. I don't usually go looking for this stuff, but when it comes to me in open form, then I discern whether to go forward in learning from that person on a regular basis. Sometimes I wonder if we are staunchly critical when it comes to church leaders ("I wouldn't attend that fellowship because the pastor is involved in such-and-such"), but looser when it comes to secular arenas ("I know that person is not in any way attempting to adhere to a biblical standard, but they do have good things to say, so I'll watch the show/attend the conference/read the book"). If so, that strikes me as odd.
As for wants vs. needs, we can often discern this, though we don't always choose it. Two reasons, I think--the first being pointed out to me by one of my sons when I tried to throw the dichotomy his direction a number of years ago, "But Dad, we can use it. That's actually quite good thinking. Does our fellowship need a bus, for instance? No, but if we had one it could be put to great use in serving those who couldn't otherwise get there. In other words, there are some things we need not because of our condition but because of the calling that God has placed upon us. And yes, this is individual. Chris needs more guitars; I don't need even one!
The second reason we may not choose only what is needed is to bless someone. Here we might use the example of someone who takes a family out to a nice dinner that they would never otherwise be able to afford. Could their benefactor just as easily and much more cheaply take them to McDonald's? You bet. That would meet the hunger need. But to take them to Claim Jumper or Daily Grill--what a treat! what a blessing! what a feast! what a joy! And here I wonder if the several Old Testament rebukings for offering God second fruits is in play. Why do we give the needy only our hand-me-downs? Is it because we think that is all that they "need" (while we meanwhile "need" more high-class duds to walk in our circles)? I know, I'm meddling, as Brad would say.
That's great food for thought Jeff. Thanks for meddling.
But I don't know if Chris really "needs" a new guitar, unless you define need by being able to use it for the kingdom. Then yes, a 12-string would be nice, but I think our household "needs" a fretless bass even more. And we'd be quite content with decent hand-me-downs. :)
But seriously, it's so true. We are so proud of ourselves for giving our used up stuff to someone needier then us, after we buy the latest and greatest for ourselves, and then pat ourselves on the back as we pass on the older things. Why not buy new things for the needy and use the mended hand-me-downs ourselves?
Thanks for making me even more "thinkin' good."
"Sometimes I wonder if we are staunchly critical when it comes to church leaders ... but looser when it comes to secular arenas"
I see a huge difference between learning facts, methods, and techniques; and willingly submitting myself to someone's authoritative leadership.
I can certainly learn things from people (Christian or otherwise) whom I would never claim to be my leader, mentor, pastor, or even friend. Yes, I hold a higher standard for leaders than for others (that's scriptural).
I don't see a double standard here for myself. There are people that I trust, in a very broad sense, to speak wisdom into my life. These are always personal relationships, people I'm living flesh-and-blood life with. Then there are people that have something to teach me, but I don't have a genuinely reciprocal relationship with. I see a huge difference between the two.
In the first category are people who are people of high moral and ethical standards. I can't think of one who wasn't also a Christian (although I have heard God speak profound spiritual truths through the lives of individuals from many religious orientations). In the second category, I evaluate the data (a crude way of putting it) and let that stand. Personally, I don't write off good teaching just because of the person it's coming through. If the message is true, it's true.
I have heard people say things about receiving or not receiving from non-Christians because of what might be "attached" to that input. This is always said in a very vague way, sometimes in a spooky tone. I usually answer with a "hmmm..." and nod my head. I just don't want to get into it. I know the person's motives are pure. But, if I hear something true, it's true. I don't care if it comes out of a mule's mouth. The idea of spiritual attachments sounds like magical thinking, hocus pocus superstition.
No matter who is speaking to me, whether a trusted mentor or an impersonal source of information, the standard I measure input by is Christ. I hold it all up to the light. At least, that's the ideal :)
I want to add this:
When someone is new in the faith, or struggling with an area of weakness, it is a good idea to let a personal leader filter sources of input. In that Jeff was using this thread to encourage people with financial disorder to get help, get aligned with kingdom order, I agree with his recommendation. This is true also when one knows they simply do not have the gift of discernment.
I really appreciate that Jeff is, here, using his flesh-and-blood leadership authority to direct those of us who are struggling to a trustworthy source of practical help.
So there you have it. My opinion.
Thanks everyone for the input. I believe I am better off now more than ever before with all the comments and sharing. May peace be with you today and always.
Have a necessity week, 7 days where you only have what is necessary. Then you decide what is necessary...tv? what kind of food? car? you live on absolute basic necessity and nothing more. Some may not use lights, or air conditioning. Maybe it would be better to start with a necessity day or two. In doing so two things generally happen, you dont take the extras for granted, and you learn just how little you can live on if you have to. Think of it as fasting those luxuries.. thanks for letting me share.
So... who's gonna hand-me-down a 12-string?
Aquila - It's called backpacking. :)
Several of us will be doing that next weekend. Want to join us?
Wow Kim, thats the best invitation I have had in a week, just one question...will we be traveling more than 50 feet, because if so I probably will hold you back to much.
Hmm. Well, just a few more feet than that. :) We have 2 extra permits if anyone wants to go. Friday-Sunday. It'll be a great time of luxury fasting....
Who Really Started It
Before heading on to another post--and wow have I enjoyed this one--I thought it would be good to explain the genesis of this post. It was a combination of: (1) a couple of people making wise decisions and telling me about not being able to afford some things right now, (2) making spending decisions in the wake of our move, which brought a little cash gain, and (3) the Dave Ramsey column in Christian Living magazine, which you can find here: http://www.christianlivingmag.com/home/T11-dave-ramsey.
Since then, I have had the opportunity as well to dig deeper into Francis Chan's book, Crazy Love, which provokes all kinds of thinking and action with regard to generosity and spending. For instance, consider this amazing passage: "When I returned from my first trip to Africa, I felt very strongly that we were to sell our house and move into something smaller, in order to give more away. The feedback I got was along the lines of 'It's not fair to your kids,' 'It's not a prudent financial choice,' 'You are doing it just for show.' I do not remember a single person who encouraged me to explore it or who supported the decision at the time."
Wow! Well, let it be said that I will continue to encourage any and all who do with their money what God directs them to do, in a cautious/extravagant sort of way.
Now on to that next post.
follow-up note:
I just received the marketing brochure for the Central California Women's Conference. The luncheon keynote speaker is Suze Orman. The title of her talk is:
Women and Money: Own the Power to Control Your Destiny.
I don't think I'll be reading her books.
Amy,
I think it's a shame you are put off by the title of Suze's talk. I have heard her speak enough to know that she believes that women often make a lot of dumb decisions about money. They leave it in someone elses hands, they have no idea where it goes or what to do with it. They often make poor decisions in their relationships with their money, and so on. She talks about women and money a lot I guess in hopes they will learn to take control of their money and make better decisions with it.
On a different note, I'm wondering how many of you have ever bought stuff you really wanted and never did anything with it? I'm famous for doing this with books. I buy books all the time with all the good intentions in the world about reading them and using them in my life and then they just sit on the shelf. I'm cleaning today and weeding books off my shelves. I came across quite a few books that I spent good money on, and then never did anything with them. What a waste. I feel bad when I see this stuff because I know it's money I could have put to better use. Today, it's on freecycle so hopefully someone else can put it to better use than I did.
I agree with you, Beth. Women, and men, make foolish choices with money. Good instruction in how to manage money responsibly is in order for many of us (myself included).
When I have heard Suze Orman speak in the past, she has delivered a message that focuses on building wealth. This can be accepted if one conceives of "wealth" as freedom from the bonds of financial slavery, freedom to use one's resources for the kingdom instead of just getting by. Her methods really aren't that different from the Christian programs, but the tone is quite different (the fundamental purpose of the recommended activity), and it definitely requires intentional filtering. Like I said before, that doesn't make her advice (in my opinion) any less useful.
When I saw the title of her talk "Own the Power to Control Your Destiny" that message of building wealth for the sake of gaining power (rather than for the sake of serving the kingdom) said, to me, "What I own on earth gives me godlike power."
The way I see things, only God has the power to control my destiny and I am trusting him to care for me. No amount of money will give me the power to save myself from the clutches of sin, and I would rather be a pauper than believe that my worldly wealth will bring me true happiness and fulfillment. Now, I could listen to her talk and apply the useful parts while editing the other. But I just don't want to use that much energy and defensiveness when I can get the information elsewhere.
If I'm reading more into this than is there, so be it. To be fair, I made this evaluation within the context of the whole marketing brochure for the conference. I was really struck by the tone. It seemed to all be about amassing power and the appearance of worldly success. Usually, I am not put off by secular resources. This, however, was not appealing to me at all.
btw, I saw that freecycle listing today for a "lot of books." How funny that it was you! I read the list of books aloud to a friend, and we laughed about the variety. Lists like that always sound absurd. Too funny. I won't be taking them (although I did look at the list, book addict that I am) because I don't need more reading material. I already have more than I can use. Taking them under those conditions sort of violates the purpose of freecycle ;).
One more note: I am in favor of women being informed and empowered (as opposed to victimized) regarding money. It is not healthy for individuals or relationships when one is dependent and helpless in basic areas of normal functioning (when there is no extenuating circumstance), and that dependence leads to manipulation, coercion, and abuse. Women are not called to abdicate personal responsibility based on their gender. Women are also not necessarily called to allow others to steamroll over them.
Amy,
Yes I guess she does talk a lot about building wealth, but I'm so far away from that I never listen to it. I'm still dealing with debt! I have read lots of other books too on dealing with debt, some of which teach you how to get out of it. I'm not interested in getting out of it, I made the debt, I'm responsible for it, so I'm going to pay for it. I'm such a reader I'm pretty good at skipping over the stuff that I'm not interested in or doesn't apply to me. I'm really seeing though why Jeff threw out the caution on secular teachings as this conversation continues. Thank you Jeff.
Hey Amy, too funny you saw my list. I guess there is no secrets now. haha! Someone took them all yesterday and I hope they get better use out of the cleaning and organizing books than I did. Sigh....
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